Shotgun load?

[jkmccoy]

Got started in 3-gun (more than just playing at it) in the past couple of months and was wondering what shotgun loads you all like.

I find that larger shot take down the targets more reliably (especially at longer ranges and using a more open choke to compensate for my own imprecision in aiming). #4 shot works much better than #7.5. However, 1 1/8oz 3DE loads are much more comfortable (in my pumpgun) than 1 1/8oz 3 1/4DE loads and the lighter loads don't seem to be available in larger shot sizes (at least I can't find them).

The Federal Tactical (reduced recoil) 00 buckshot loads are very comfortable to shoot and knock down targets very reliably (even at long range and/or through brush), but they are way too expensive to use for practice. Anyone have a cheap source for these shells?

BTW - Federal shells seem to be a bit shorter than some other brands. I can get 10 Federals in my magazine, but only 9 of most other brands.

So, What do you use?

Cheers,

[ErikW]

Run of the mill trap loads. 3 to 3.25 DRAM, 1.125 oz. #7.5 or #8. I stick in a Light Mod choke for the long shots at the grader blades. If were faced with a bunch of those I'd buy some #4, but the lighter stuff does the job for me. (See Mr. Sweeney's post below for a light DRAM #4 load.)

I believe putting a large payload on the target is more important than the size of the pellets in the payload.

For practice with buckshot, try the S&B. Patterns like crap compared to Fed Tactical, but doesn't kick more and slams poppers with authority.

(Edited by Erik Warren at 10:48 am on Dec. 5, 2002)

[Mistral404]

I am very new to 3gun.  We had an interesting match this weekend.  Steel layed out in an arroyo.  

I was shooting Walmart specials, 71/2 shot in an cylinder choke.  One piece of steel would not go down.  I patterned all around it twice.  The other 22 plates (two runs) all went down.  

Walmart specials are ok for me in local matches.  I suspect I would want a little more power in a real competitive match.

You can get slugs and buckshot at Walmart for about $2.65-$2.99.  Where I live the buck and slugs come in pretty infrequently.  If any finds it a store, they usually buy a case then re-sell to friends.

I have been able to hit and miss with PMC, Federal, Remington, Winchester equally as well.

I like the idea of choking down a bit for a better concentration.  I was a little worried about shooting slugs through a modified choke.

Any thoughts about slugs and modified chokes?

[ErikW]

Mistral, go for an IC choke, which is the recommended slug choke anyway. Cylinder spreads out the pattern too much so you don't get enough payload on target. (I've heard Mod. is as tight as you should go for slugs.)

[sledgee]

Mistral-

If you mean you are worried about safety using slugs in a modified choke, don't be.  Not a problem.

The 1100 barrel I'm fooling with puts 3 WW full-boat slugs into <3" at 50 yards, with the Mod Remchoke installed.  Not exceptional, but plenty good enough.  This same setup holds 7" patterns at 15 yards with Brenneke 00 Buck, and that IS pretty special for a factory barrel/choke combination.  Now I need to get it to open up to about double that with a 1 1/8 oz load for 3 gun.  Shouldn't be hard, as it shoots most buck about that way.

Any common lead factory load can be safely fired through any common factory barrel/choke combination.  (Same chamber length, of course).  Including slugs.  With the liability vultures so prevalent, manufacturers couldn't afford for it to be otherwise.

The way barrels/chokes/ loads will work together is pretty unpredictable.  You just have to 'speriment.

Regarding Wal-Mart ammo.  It sucks.  Here in Texas, I can buy Remington 1 1/8 oz Heavy Dove 3 1/4 dram loads, in either 6 or 7 1/2, for about the same money by the case at Academy Sports (a big chain).  That Winchester aluminum base crap Wal-Mart sells is the worst shotgun ammo ever made, and Wal-Mart Federal isn't much better.

Joe

[Les Snyder]

most local ranges around here have a 7 1/2 max shot size requirement, so I try to load up on the promo stuff at the beginning of hunting season...I do use the Wall Mart stuff, but I go with SuperX 1oz of 7 1/2 ...yea the steel based stuff is really bad... I go with 1 1/8 Double AA in 7 1/2 for Kyle's match, but since he's standardized most of the targets as clay birds, might try some 8's this year.... for long steel try lead BB if the range will allow its use... regards

[Singlestack]

IC Choke and Winchester AA Heavy Target #8 for me.  

[Mistral404]

Thanks for the advice on the chokes.  I will switch them out soon.

I am pretty much dead on with a vent rib fiber optic front sight with the slugs at 60+ yds.  So I wll experiment with the different choke.

[Patrick Sweeney]

If you want a factory large peller light load, try the Federal load #H1234.  It is 1-1/8 of #4's at 3 or 3-1/4 DR.

We prefer #4's around here, as they worked best for practice on pins.  Less bounceback, and even with just a bit of choke takes poppers down nicely.

[rkgsmith]

Kelly, last year before the 3 gun natls. I did extensive  testing of chokes and patterns. I stick with all federal (Dept. Issue). Slugs, OO buck  and 3 dram #7 will do just about everything. I use almost exclusively a modified choke. I puts everyting (oo buck) in the C zone or better at 25 yds. and all A zone out to 70 yards with slugs. If you can get some reduced recoil federal slugs they are the ticket. The remington's are good to 50 yards, but drop off real fast after that. If the course of fire is poppers at 25 or so yards choose some heavy 4's or 5's to slam the poppers down or you'll be wasting time waiting for them to fall. Hope this helps.

[kellyn]

While shot size and weight may be important, I think choke is even more so.  I saw a lot of shooters shooting heavy loads of 6s and 5s with cylinder bores on the "long range" shotgun course at the 3 gun nationals and fail to take the poppers down.  I think 30 yards was about the farthest shot.  I shot the cheapie remington field load of 1 ounce of 8s and won the stage, with a modified choke. I do think an ounce and an eighth is the way to go though but I'll take a tight choke over larger shot any day.  Plus knowing I have a tighter choke makes me slow down and get better sight pictures.  Just one opinion.

[jkmccoy]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I guess that I had really reached my own conclusions and was mostly looking for confirmation.

I really like to shoot an IC choke for most 3gun (although my Cutts compensator may pattern a bit tighter than most modern choke tubes). As Patrick said, #4 shot takes down steel targets (and pins) with much more authority than smaller shot, even with just a little choke. One of the clubs where I shoot uses some very heavy plates as targets. I've seen people put multiple hits on these targets with modified chokes and 7.5 or 8 shot and fail to knock them down. #4 shot through my IC choke puts them down solidly. I was using the Federal #H1234 loads recommended by Patrick. They work great. I was just wishing I could find a slightly lighter (3 dram) load that worked as well.

With all due respect to Kelly N. (great name BTW) I understand that a tighter choke will put more pellets on the target, but in my testing changing from #7.5 shot to #4 shot will give better results than changing from an IC choke to a modified choke. Some of that difference may be individual variation among guns. My shotgun seems to throw pretty tight patterns with the IC choke.

I do like the Federal shells. They are clean, they pattern well, and they seem to be very consistent. I love the Federal reduced recoil buckshot. I just wish they weren't so darned expesive.

The same club mentioned above set a shotgun stage that required running about 60yds down a path through a very brushy area and engaging targets up to 20yds off the path (many through the brush/trees/cactus). 00buck was definitely the ticket for that stage.

Cheers,

(Edited by jkmccoy at 1:59 am on Dec. 5, 2002)

[kurtm]

Kelly:

Quit turning that "thang" upside down to load!!!! Slowing down for the choke and flipping seem to be the worst of both worlds!!!!  All kidding aside CHOKE is where its at!!!!

Joe I must disagree ( like the scout scope deal). Blane, Eric and I have shot upwards of 15,000 rounds of  Wal-Mart FEDERAL with nary a hitch for 1100's and Benellies. Dean has been "dealin death" with Federal, and we all enjoyied Dove season with this load! Ain't it great it's sooooo darn cheap!!! maybe the formula is different in  Texas. SORRY all I ment ot say is that CHOKE is where it,s at!! We all could learn from water foulers!                               KURT

[sledgee]

Kurt,

Maybe I'm slandering Federal unfairly then.  It's been a couple of years since I bought any Wal-Mart promo shells, and I was thinking I had trouble with both the Federal and the Winchester, but maybe it was just the aluminum-based Winchester.

If the Federal works for the Rocky Mountain 3 gun gods, who am I to argue?

BTW, I've kind of cooled on scout scopes.  I'm hunting with a 1.75-6X  VXIII these days.  (Don't tell CC).

Oh, and we had a GREAT dove season here!

Joe

[kurtm]

Joe:

Maybe you did get a promo Federal shell. I saw them once and passed on them after we all had trouble with Winchester!

The Federal I get at Wally World is the 7 1/2 or 8 Multi purpose in the 100 pacs. Just about all of R.M.3G. guys use them any more. I know what you mean about the Scout scope. Give me iron or magnification! Dove season was good here to I think the drought helped in that reguard.                                             KURT

[kellyn]

Kurt, I'll stop loading upside down the day after Bennie Cooley does.

I agree that heavier shot retains more energy down range which is good for knocking stuff over but Kurt and I agree (a first!) that choke has more of an effect.

[kurtm]

Kelly:

If Bennie jumped off a cliff would you too?  NOT!!!  I might remind you that Bennie grabs 3-4 shells out of his Choate loaders when he does it that way. Sometimes he uses that Wrist deal and or a side saddle. Who knows? After reading Mike45s post on shotgun comp in the U.K. seems like we all need to learn a few things, 6 plates under 7 seconds from an empty gun!! WOW.

As for heavier shot; as you state choke is the thing , if almost all of a 1 1/8 oz. charge hits a plate at say 20 yd, or popper it will fall down! no need for heavy shot with the attendant recoil. This subject just chokes me up. Right on!!  Any interest in going to the European shotgun championships. I am going to try to get there!    KURT

[kellyn]

If bennie jumped off a cliff and kept winning Limited, I would follow.  Sounds like those Brits are pretty speedy.  I'd like to see that.  I would like to go to that match in Europe but the new job is going to preclude me from doing so.  good luck!

[Neil Beverley]

All the top times for loading in the UK are achieved with the gun upside down and held real close to the belt.  Surprisingly perhaps not always using Eezi-loaders.  In my case I cradle the gun in my right hand with my right thumb debressing the latch (no Eezi-loader).  I twist the cartridges into the tube with my forefinger positioned on the primer and using an elasticated belt.  Some guys are using the Pro-dec ( Have I spelt that right?) belts.

The consensus in the UK is that choked guns achieve better results compared to changes to cartridge shot sizes.  We use between modified to full chokes and cartridge sizes from 4s to 7 1/2s but mosty 5s and 6s.  Most cartridges are 32gram (1 1/8) but some just use 1 ounce loads.

With 1 or 2 exceptions in the UK I think that generally the US shooter is achieving better splits.

[kurtm]

Neil Beverley:

Don't go by what has been posted here for split times. These measures are in reguards to how fast the gun will function. We still have recoil to recover from and a bead or sight to realign befor shooting that next plate or popper. I don't know of any stage in which one is requiered to DOUBLE a plate or popper so these split time measures are of dubious quality in the measure of actual shooting . This is NOT to say that there aren't some mighty fast hombres with a shotgun on plate racks and a line of poppers, but when it comes to ports and run and gun it is usualy decided on how fast one loads.

There is a division on the best loading technique over here. Some load with the gun up side down like you guys do. Some load with the gun at the shoulder and use the weak hand to load with. All kidding aside ( Kelly is of the first camp, and I of the second) There is just not much difference in time from those at the top of the game in the loading department. ( Yes Bennie beat Blane, Eddie ,and my self on the shotgun only stage at M.M.3G. last year but it was only by .4 seconds I know a win is a win Kelly but that ain't much difference in time for loading 6 shells).                                 KURT

[KyleL]

Modified, 2 3/4 Dram 1 1/8 oz #7.5.

And I will have to agree with Kelly on the upside down load. I have to, I don't want to have him lock me up again... LOL

KyleL

[kellyn]

Ah.  I've found a way to keep Kyle in line!  I'll try not to abuse the awesome power of the moderator. Kyle,  I've heard that your quite something in the remington tactical shotgun video.  I'm anxious to see it.

Kurt, Let's not limit ourselves to the last MM3G.  Recent events all favor the upside down load.  2002 3 Gun nats: first (and second!) in limited shotgun were won by upside down loaders as was NC 3 Gun.  Sure it's all Bennie but........    

[kurtm]

Kelly:

Welllll Lets look at othere 3 gun matches as well, then. The last 2 W.C.3 Gun matches were won right side up, and the last S.O.F. and the first spring S.O.F ( also the last) And ALL rocky Mountain 3 Gun Matches since 1995! Well thats because that is where Blane, Eric, Kurt, and Eddie shoot. And lets not forget the over all winner in limited at Mesa last year was a right side up loader, Teran Butler, and the year befor, Myself. But I digress, it just goes to show that there isn't much difference ME thinks

[mike45]

I think the only person I have ever seen try to load the right side up is a swat cop, a mate of mine, and he dropped two out of the three rounds he tried to load!

It must be an art to master, doesn't the distance from belt to gun seem to make a big difference, plus I guess you would have to be spot on with hand co-ordination.

[kurtm]

Mike45:

Loading right side up, or loading with the shotgun pointed at the target or at the shoulder is not vey hard at all! I use to load off the belt grabing 2 at a time and bringing the gun very close to my belt and still kept the gun upright ( the secret is to put the shells into the belt crimp up) Then I got several Chote shell caddies. These hold the shells in a stack 6 deep horizontal to the belt. Now I grab 4 at a time, bring them up to the gun and then thumb them in. How fast is it? Well starting pointed at the target both hands on the shotgun I can load 4 and shot 1 round at the target in 3.5-3.75 seconds. To load 6, I make 2 grabs of 3 shells each, to load an empty gun takes 5.0-5.65 seconds ( I'm not real consistent so it fluctuates a little. I feel that in the long run this is a better way to load as the shotgun never leaves the shoulder so you are not dismounting and then mounting the gun so much, also in the middle of loading if you need to engage a target that you are running up on it is only a matter of shooting the gun that is already at your shoulder. Does it matter much? Probably not. As I mentioned befor those at the top of thier game are all pretty close!! What Kelly hasn't told anybody is that the guys that load upside down like Bennie, Mike Voight, Todd Salmon and a FEW others, are also REALLY GOOD with the other 2 guns in 3 gun matches as well. Kelly and I like to kid each other about this, but like I said I really don't think there is much differance!!!!!                                     KURT