CCW Training

[DougCarden]

Hey Ron, as a current Firearms Instructor/Swat team member/Department Firearms Instructor that is a full time IPSC shooter you nailed it, PERIOD!

I cant put it any better..... My guys could give a shit, as long as they make their magic " number" that qualifies them, and they aint even close to being B class shooters.........

DougC

[Gun Geek]

Hey Ron, as a current Firearms Instructor/Swat team member/Department Firearms Instructor that is a full time IPSC shooter you nailed it, PERIOD!

I cant put it any better..... My guys could give a shit, as long as they make their magic " number" that qualifies them, and they aint even close to being B class shooters.........

DougC

Given your creds, what do you think of the 1911 vs Glockish discussion?

[Gun Geek]

I think "cocked and killed" is wrong, and note that most military weapons have a safety.

I'm getting into this (again), primarily because I think the discussion is worthwhile. I'm glad we're keeping it civil...

I've got a couple of posts here about a different instructor who has a similar opinion of 1911s as Flyin40's did.

I made the very same as point above and his answer was something like the following:

Most millitary personnel rarely if ever have to draw a gun quickly to defend themselves. If they are in combat, the only time they go to the pistol is when their primary weapon goes down and they are caught in the open, which should be rare, or when clearing a very confined space, in which case they draw the weapon before going in. Most military holsters are not currently, and have not been, designed for quick draw. They have flaps and retention devices.

Civillian defensive shootings are a different matter. They are usually quick and only a few rounds are fired while every one runs away. Speed gained through simplicity becomes critical.

The weapons and holsters best suited for each situation are different.

[Flexmoney]

A person is likely to revert to their training, I think.

[Ron Ankeny]

John:

It's bad enough I can't spell, now I can't even read. I thought the sentence meant the sights were never used.

Right now I am three deep into a six pack so take this for what it's worht. I think flex is right. Let's see, if I get out of bed 30 minutes early to do dry firing exercises 4-5 times a week for 45 weeks out of the year. That's maybe 30,000 manipulations of the safety not counting live fire, multiplied by how many years... Holy crap that's like a half a million manipulations of the safety. I doubt I am going to forget to take the safety off.

That said, I do recommend new shooters consider something like a Glock or an XD. But to make a blanket statement about a 1911 not being suited to defensive use????

Then again, that type of thought pattern is why folks still proclaim the best defensive handgun is a revolver. Actually, Glocks blow up, 1911's jam if you remember to take the safety off, maybe a revolver is the way to go.

[AikiDale]

Civillian defensive shootings are a different matter. They are usually quick and only a few rounds are fired while every one runs away. Speed gained through simplicity becomes critical.

Civillian defensive shootings tend to occur within ten feet. They tend to be very quick. There is no "better" pistol for this inherently. If your weapon of choice is reliable and you can get it into play quickly it matters not who manufactured it. It can be a 1911, a Glock, a single action revolver or a katana at that range. What matters is that it is functional and the shooter, within the time frame allowed by his perception of a lethal force attack, can bring his weapon into play. I think in the defensive realm, just as in the competitive sporting realm, it is the shooter, not the gun that matters most. That would make the best weapon for defensive carry be the one you trust and feel comfortable handling. I recently had a student who wanted to carry a pistol. This young lady was 56 years old and could not rack the slide on several semi-automatics. We settled on a S&W .357 revolver with a 2.5 inch barrel. She practices mostly with .38's and carries magnums. It is the best choice for her.

Sorry, I seem to lecture. Just my opinion of course.

[Flyin40]

Ron,

The instructor was saying the same thing your saying. Weaver was thrown out the window.

I didn't even try to argue with the "cocked and killed" comment he made, theres no sense wasting your time. I'll I did was mearly repeat what he said. I never once said I agreed with him. I only said some of the things he teaches crosses over to comp shooting. And it does. I did make the comment about 1911 jamming out of the box but in my experience thats holds true. I've owned Kimber Gold Match, Colts, Springfields, STI EDGE, Glocks, Taurus. Out of all my guns the Glock was the only one that never gave me problems. This was from personal experience and what I based my decision on.

Not sure if you seen it but I had posted a poll on what people carry. I already had apprehesion about carry a 1911 prior to the class. I just didn't like the idea. So I was looking at Para LDA's but looking on this site and the 1911 forums para's have some big problems. The reason I talked about going with a Glock had nothing to do with what he was "Preaching about Glock" It was his approach to self defense. He really emphasized that there is no second place in a gun fight.

He really made you think about using the gun and what would happen if you did use it. Remember I was already having second thoughts about carry a 1911 and I told myself to be honest. Would I feel 100% comfortable that 1.I would feel comfortable carrying the 1911 Answer was no. 2. Was I 100% that the gun would function Again this was no. Thats why I'm considering a Glock. It had nothing to do with him saying Glock was better, it had everything to do with HOW I PERSONALLY FELT ABOUT IT AND THE EXPERIENCE I HAVE HAD WITH THE 2 WEAPONS.

If you reread the post you'll see that.

I think what happen is the guys saw this self defense instructor bashing 1911's and the tunnel vision turned on. I think people felt this guy was wrong and anything he said was wrong regardless of what it was even when he was saying the same thing B. Enos whats saying about technique.

Basically I started shooting about 6 weeks ago for the first time since 1999. The course refreshed my memory on some things that I kinda forgot about. I was new back then and shot about 6 months in 1999. I'm getting back into in trying to work on technique more than anything. I was dryfiring like crazy back then for that 6 months, man did it help.

Flyin40

[BSeevers]

I don't think what that guy teaches crossed over to competition shooting.

Some of what competition shooters developed he is teaching. Stance, grip, iso vs weaver, using 2 hands, just about everything was "developed" in competition or by guys who shot competition

[DougCarden]

Given your creds, what do you think of the 1911 vs Glockish discussion

Gun Geek , I dont have as much experience as most of the gentlemen posting here, and I defer to them. What I will say in my meager experience is I dont give a rip what you like or want to shoot! Find a gun that fits your hand, is 100% reliable, and practice until you can manipulate it and use it reflexively without having to concentrate on what you are doing!

I started going to Second Chance because I found that match put me under so much stress that I figured if I could keep my S#$T together at that match and do well with a handgun I should be OK on the street. My 9mm Beretta was like a .22 after shooting 230PF pinloads all the time. At no time has my competition training ever endangered me or my guys. In fact, it always got me to the front of the line in case the bad guy needed put down.... . As many mistakes I have made with all the time on the line I find that it helps me work with the newer shooters, and that cant be a bad thing!

GLock, 1911, XD, SIG, shoot whatever you find works well for you. Someone that stands in front of the class and TELLS you what model is best for you doesnt really get my respect or attention, but I am becoming stubborn in my old age. I bought the glocks and everything else that the gunscribes said I should, and what do I carry on my own time now. A 5in 1911 .45 and an airweight .38 with CORBON. Gawd, I sound like Rauch......

[SinistralRifleman]

People will be proficient with whatever they practice with regularly. I strongly endorse using firearms with the same basic operating controls and features for both daily carry and competition....if you shoot a Glock, carry a Glock, if you shoot a 1911, carry a 1911. Continuity of training is important....but if you put enough rounds through both types, its not an issue.

Everyone on this site is way above the proficiency level of the average gun owner/shooter....we must keep in mind that to some people firing a couple hundred rounds a year is "a lot of ammo." Many people that take CCW classes never shoot their gun again after the class. That said, I generally view 1911s as a type of firearm that requires more skill to use proficiently than a Glock, or especially a double action revolver.

I think a lot of these instructors have to play to the lowest common denominator, otherwise they will overly confuse people and accomplish nothing in the 8-16 hours of training their particular state mandates.

[tightloop]

The instructor should take the personal views out of the course....use what you like, but become conversant with the controls ....then shoot it exclusively...makes for no mistakes....