COAL and which bullets?

[brian45acp]

So figures Saturday the one round that didnt chamber all the way happened after activating a clam shell which was good for 2 "mikes".

I am using Zero 125grn JHP and the shape of the bullet is having me run these suckers shorter and shorter. I did the plunk and spin test with the barrel out of the gun and they pass. What I didnt realize is that this test doesnt work so well in a CZ barrel because the case sticks about the barrel hood. So once fed from the mag into the chamber the slide keeps forward pressure on the round in the chamber then the problem reveals itself. I think the plunk test had the bullet touching the rifling and still allowed it to seem like it passed but once in battery it stuck.

I kept that round and took it home to check it out. The odd part is that it was a good length and other rounds the same length feed fine. I cant figure this out and its driving me nuts. At this point I dropped down to 1.080-1.090 and they all seem to be happy now and this is passing from the mag test not the plunk test. I cant explain why same length rounds feed and one here and there wont. I am using mixed once fired brass so my theory is that there is just enough difference in the brass that the shoulder of the bullet will either be more above the end of the brass or below causing this to happen.

I am using a 1050 with GSI feeder and tool head and for what ever reason getting some rounds that are on the plus side by 15 thousandths. Mostly my new load is now 1.083 but here and there I get a 1.090 and I even caught one at 1.095. I checked everything and I think some military brass causes the press to torque the tool head a bit dealing with punching and swaging the primer and pocket causing the differences.

Once I get through these Zero bullets I am going to try the Montana Golds. Those seemed to have a very blunt shoulder but I loaded one bullet I had to 1.090 and it felt fine in the barrel.

Any advice on whats going on? I dont want to ream the barrels of all my CZ's and I dont think its necessary. I just need to dial in my load here and should be fine. I never had a gun where the barrel hood is below the head of the cartridge. I am not sure the advantage to this but the round must sit nice and flush to the breech face with this design. On the other hand coupled with a short chamber it makes things interesting for picking bullets and COAL.

Thanks

[rowdyb]

I have been running the 147gr Montana Gold recently and I can run a longer OAL with that bullet than most of the bullets I've ever tried in my CZ's. I run that bullet at a OAL of 1.120 with no issues.

[Hi-Power Jack]

1. I did the plunk spin test and they pass. the plunk test had the bullet touching the rifling and still allowed it to seem like it passed but once in battery it stuck.

The Plunk Test is so named, because when you drop the cartridge into the chamber, it goes "Plunk".

You won't get a Plunk if the bullet touches the rifling, but does not go completely into the chamber.

If you're hard of hearing (Like Me), best to drop it in, and then give it a quick push to make sure it's

fully seated. Then try to spin it, and drop it out of the barrel. If it won't spin or drop, it hasn't passed

The Plunk Test.

[brian45acp]

Like I said I cant explain what the deal is. Why would it drop in the barrel and not chamber from the mag. Its hanging the slide out about 1/4 inch. I pushed the rear of the bullet and it doesnt exactly stick and does fall out but not as freely as it should I suppose. I colored the bullet with a sharpie and could see where it was hitting the rifling so maybe my test is a failure but for sure there is evidence of it hitting.

I want to stick with 124 grn but I think the montanas are next on the list then. I am sure the FMJ would load longer but I have been using JHP so perhaps that is also part of bullet profile giving me more trouble. FMJ can load out long and even my duty/defense JHP ammo have a more FMJ profile and no issues feeding.

Any of you loading on a 1050 and getting a wide variance in OAL? Using mixed brass I am not sure how can contribute to this but it must be part of the reason. I cant wrap my mind around how mixed brass has an effect on the OAL.

Edited June 14, 2015 by brian45acp

[Hi-Power Jack]

Any round will drop into any chamber.

The question is, did it drop in completely - the Plunk Sound.

Yes, different brass might be different, and that is why when you successfully

complete the Plunk Test, you reduce your OAL a little more than you found.

E.g., once you Plunk at 1.111", you might want to drop that OAL to 1.105"

and try 50 of them to see if that's low enough.

[brian45acp]

Seems like I was almost there, lol. This particular bullet seem to like 1.080 but less then 1.095. I aimed at 1.085 and the +/- seems to keep me with in where they will still chamber properly. I guess I was close when I was previously at 1.095 but on the + side I had issues here and there.

[brian45acp]

OK, so I figured out why this is so hard to understand. Its a 2 part issue I am having. 1 was the easy part the OAL being a little long. What I could not understand was why a round at 1.098 wont chamber but another would of the same length or even a little longer. I marked the brass this time with sharpie and the bullet and found that the brass is bulged near the base of the bullet and for what ever reason will drop in the barrel but once fed from the mag and being held by the extractor it will stick.

Is there some die other the the LEE that I can use which would resize the finished round to even out the bulge? This isnt near the bottom of the case this is caused when seating the bullet for some reason.

[Hi-Power Jack]

I've never heard of resizing the cartridge after the bullet has been seated.

Cartridges usually bulge a little at the base of the bullet.

Still wonder if the bulge that is causing the problem is actually lower in

the case.

How often does this happen? Every round? 50%? 10%? 2-3%?

I've never used a 1050, but have heard outstanding reports = very

surprised you're having a problem with brass bulge, at all. Still wonder

if it's the OAL?

When you drop the cartridge in, it's stuck (won't come out), but will

it spin?

[brian45acp]

Its a 2 part issue which I think made this so hard to figure out. It made no sense that one round at 1.098 wouldnt chamber from the mag while another of the same length would. I sharpied the entire round and did it again and could see the marks removed on the brass from the bulge in the brass near the base of the bullet. There is no bulge at the bottom of the case.

Apparently the LEE FCD is supposed to resize and crimp the finished round at the last station so that sounds like the trick. I need to look at my 1050 some more and see if the shell plate can be adjusted because every now and then the bullet is smashing the brass at the seating station which might be an indicator the bullet is being seated crooked a little causing too much of that bulge as it seats. Its not the 1050 its the dang GSI feeder that keep giving me trouble. I swear I bought this feeder thinking it looked more finished and professional which should mean less tinkering but I dont think that is the reality.

Oddly dropping a round in the barrel by hand will pass the plunk test etc. The same round wont feed from the mag. I think once the extractor holds on to it and the breech face positions the round in the chamber things change a bit. I think the plunk test is only good for length testing. I had to load up all my mags and hand cycle them through the gun and eject the good ones into a box and out of about 300 found around 20 that didnt feel right. Perhaps at full slide stroke they would slam into the chamber but by hand they hung the slide up so the trick was finding those and getting them out of my stage ammo.

[rowdyb]

EGW U-die, Lee Factory crimp die. Those two in combination have solved 90% of my ammo problems. Any issue I have now is related to a poorly seated primer. Loading on a 1050 btw

Edited June 15, 2015 by rowdyb

[brian45acp]

That's exactly what I ordered. I don't think I can adjust the shell plate indexing on a 1050 since it has those pins which align the plate as the tool head moves down. If I have any more issues with this GSI bullet feeder it's coming off. I am not sure it has and hand in this but I still need to spend time on the machine and dial it in.

Edited June 15, 2015 by brian45acp

[fishsticks]

I'd try just resizing a few and then do a plunk test. Try several brands of brass. Doing it this way takes the bullet and coal out of the equation. It could be that the size die isn't threaded down enough. You also might try some case lube if you don't already use some.

[brian45acp]

Yeah I do all that already.

Honestly having shot glocks or 1911's this issue never presented itself. These CZ's have tight short chambers and like perfect ammo. I'm glad I have no issues with factory or carry ammo because I plan to have some CZ's in my carry rotation.

I think these LEE dies will solve the issue. I just hope like all LEE products I've tried before these don't suck or break.

[brian45acp]

OK guys I need some help here:

I asked for help on the Dillon reloading section but this has more to do with CZ then Dillon. I got the FCD and the U die from EGW and I have to say despite being Lee these are some nice dies and are kicking out much nicer finished rounds. The crimp is amazing. The bullet puller now takes me like 4-5 hard hits to remove and the bullet has zero signs of having been loaded. Prior to that the Dillon crimp was a very fine balance between leaving a mushroom look to the bullet vs not having enough crimp. So now that this is solved I think the FCD is helping my situation for sure.

Its very interesting to me how this is happening and I havent come across it yet in 13 years reloading. Just on my CZ's this is happening where the slide stick open on some rounds. I looked for patters here and it seems the most problematic is Tula brass. How ever the issue isnt just Tula it has been various others so that doesnt really narrow it down much. For the life of me I cant figure out how the same round that will drop in the barrel and spin and case gauge wont chamber from the mag when the gun is put together. I took the top end off and with the barrel in the slide moved forward I slipped the bad round under the extractor then slide the barrel back and this is where I can see the problem. The round chambers but the barrel has lots of resistance to push down in order to lock into the lugs. It this point where the round slide up the breech face and the barrel is about to lock up to the lugs that my issue is presenting itself. Since the same round drops in the barrel and spins it cant be an OAL issue. It has something to do with the point the barrel is bumping up into the breech and about to lock up on the lugs.

This is why I havent really seen much in the way of marking the entire outside of the case and bullet with a sharpie because I dont think the issue is happening at those areas. I was looking for spots the sharpie was removed to identify the point of contact. Its something to do with the case rim and head stamp area. I measured one of the Tula head stamps and it wasnt symetirical all the way round. One area was about 3 thousandths more then the next measured area. This was the calipers resting on like 12 and 6 then 3 and 9 etc.

Im stumped here and dont know what to do. The new dies and the advice from the Dillon rep have helped a lot. Actually all the ammo I have made with is only about 100 rounds since the new dies and re adjusting has all chambered fine. Dillons suggestion was to loosen all the die lock rings at every station and then cycle the press down to the rounds and then with the rounds in the dies lock them back up. This was supposed to keep the bullet seating at an odd angle and bulging the brass more toward one side then the other when looking at the base of the bullet area around the brass case.

So what I did next was removed the bullets from the brass that failed to chamber and then loaded them up again with the same bullet to the same piece of brass. It failed again. I then changed bullets to a new bullet, not different style, and same brass and it failed again. So now I know its something to do with the brass. What about the brass is bad I have no idea but of course this crap loads fine in the glock.

[brian45acp]

Oh and by the way this happens on the Rami as well. The Rami uses a traditional breech face and barrel hood so I wanted to see if that had any impact. It also failed in the Rami as well. Of course the glocks will all have looser chambers and wider breech faces as to accept out of spec ammo.

I may have to stop buying once fired bulk brass and start finding once fired sorted all the same head stamp. Im getting all kinds of add ball brass I never heard of which can cause all kinds of issues.

[rowdyb]

idk..... I run 100% range pick brass that I don't sort at all. can you post any pics and measurements?

[brian45acp]

I cant figure out what it is and have looked at the brass over and over. The Tula piece I measured had an out of round head stamp for sure but to the eye there isnt much to see. I need to try a few more tests and will take some pics. These pieces fail in all my CZ's so its not a gun issue that I can see. Having taken apart that round and loading it again with the new dies in place I thought was a pretty good indicator the brass was junk. Even before taking it apart I tried running the finished round through the FCD. I am quite sure all of this is pointing to a head stamp issue especially since the rounds drop in and out of the barrel but just wont lock up the barrel once fed from the mag.

I am going to try to take apart the round this time and feed just the brass with the bullet out. This should eliminate and possibility of the bullet. I did measure my bullets and they are .355 so I dont think thats the issue. Its the whole drop in the barrel and spin but not feed from the mag that has me stumped. I would think the OAL would have some part of this because being too long means it drops in the barrel but hangs out the back end so much the barrel cant link up to the lugs.

Edited June 22, 2015 by brian45acp

[brian45acp]

Ok I figured it out. The brass is long and out of spec on some cases. Both pieces are Blazer and one is 15 thousandths longer then the other. The only solution is to ream the barrel about 5 thousandths longer to assure all pieces feed reliably. I dont want to ream my barrels but I dont see another option. You can see the difference in both just with the eye so its quite a bit.

The issue though is the brass is with in spec. He longer piece is .754. Most of you guys I think aren't teaming your barrels and I really don't want to mess with that. There has to be another trick I'm missing.

With just the slide in my hand and barrel I pulled both bullets and fit the brass under the extractor and then tried to lock the barrel up. On the longer piece of brass you can feel it bind and drag up the breech face. I have read some of you guys polish the breech face but I dont see how that could help. Possibly if the breech face were really smooth the brass might slide up into position better. With the gun together on some questionable pieces if I let the slide rip forward with the stock recoil spring the round will jam itself into place. If you guys think a polished breech face would help how should I go about that? I figured I would remove the extractor and use 1500 paper on plastic flat head driver tip or similar and just have to work it back and forth. Not a lot of room in there to work with though.

Edited June 23, 2015 by brian45acp