Finally got a chrono, please help me check out these loads

[evilbeef54]

Hey guys i finally got a chrono so i could start testing some different ammo i loaded. Everything was shot through my Gen 3 Glock 35 with a stock barrel, all loads were mixed case heads once shot range brass dry tumbled. I am still very new to reloading, i have made only about 1000 rounds and have been chasing down little issues here and there in my techniques and the used dillon 550 i bought

temp was 77* F today, sunny, chrono was set out at 10 feet under the edge of the overhang so not in direct sunlight, lighting was consistent

The first load was one i had made a few weeks ago with my dillon 550 press, it was for when i am shooting production so i was just going for minor:

Berry's RNFP 180 gr, 3.8gr WST 1.125 OAL, Federal match primers, .42 crimp

825, 808, 825, 823, 829, 810, 819, 821, 806, 817

could go lower for production minor, accuracy was good, i am not sure but the velocity spreads seemed good

The next 5 strings were where i made some test batches for major. They were all with mixed case heads WSF powder, 1.140 OAL (1.145 seems to be the max i can get to go into my glock mags, and feed reliably when manually cycling so i backed it down to 1.140) and federal primers. I think the only changes to the press were I changed to a new small powder bar and spacer, and i installed a lee seating die so i could have a dial to get the OAL right.

I will be running Xtreme bullets for a while as i have 1k of these on hand so these were the first samples done

Xtreme 180 FPRN, 1.140 OAL 5.4gr WSF

956, 917, 894, 945, 946, 926, 903, 880, 931, 927

Xtreme 180 FPRN, 1.140 OAL 5.2gr WSF

888, 874, 897, 892, 885, 902, 871, 930, 933, 938 (these last few rounds and every string of fire below i moved 1 notch lower on the bench rest block so i shot about 2" lower)

Xtreme 180 FPRN, 1.140 OAL 5.0 gr WSF

865, 883, 832, 875, 868, 882, 868, 836, 869, 891

I also had some Berry's 180 Gr FPRN left over so i ran batches too so i would have data for future use, and to see what difference the length in bullet would have. again these were 1.140 OAL, WSF powder, mixed case heads

Berry's 180 FPRN, 1.140 OAL 5.4 GR WSF

921, 961, 940, 961, 952, 932, 949, 944, 944, 943, 946

Berry's 180 FPRN, 1.140 OAL 5.2 gr WSF

973, 952, 925, 948, 938, 916, 937, 923, 871, 926

Berry's 180 FPRN, 1.140 OAL 5.0 WSF

895, 887, 923, 902, 910, 882, 903, 895, 912, 880

This is my first time running ammo through a chrono, and as i said i am new to the whole reloading thing. I am trying to work up a good go to batch for USPSA Limited Major, so with the 180gr i need a min or 917 right? These numbers to my inexperienced eye look very erratic with large deviations, am i correct or is this normal. My procedure was to zero my scale with the tray on it, weigh out the powder adjusting until i got the ammount right, then press out a 10 round group at that weight. everything got mic'ed to check the length to make sure it was at or real close to the 1.140 i was going for, (1.138-1.142) then i would box up those ten rounds label it, and go about re-zeroing the scale and starting over for the next batch. I did have one that didnt get a primer picked up so it was a good round to take apart and i looked at the bullet and didnt see any indentations from over crimping, just barely scratches, more like rub marks, i basically had it crimping to remove the slight bell. Are these devations normal or no? knowing that i need at least a 165 PF, i think i would have to go with the 5.4gr loads, although the 5.2 seem like they could do it there are a few on the berry's and a lot on the xtreme that were under (admittidly the xtreme that were under were shot maybe an inch or too higher if that makes a difference). Hell, even two of the Xtreme 5.4 load were under PF. accuracy seemed good on everything, just concerned with the numbers being all over the place.

I would like any input, advice, suggestions you guys can provide here. Anything on my techniques, or suggested changes to the load. I am trying to get the most consistent, flattest shooting major load i can with what i have. Again any suggestions, thoughts, input would be of great help.

[Hi-Power Jack]

1. going for minor:

180 gr, 3.8gr WST 1.125 OAL,

825, 808, 825, 823, 829, 810, 819, 821, 806, 817

2. test batches for major.

Xtreme 180 FPRN, 1.140 OAL 5.4gr WSF

956, 917, 894, 945, 946, 926, 903, 880, 931, 927

Berry's 180 FPRN, 1.140 OAL 5.4 GR WSF

921, 961, 940, 961, 952, 932, 949, 944, 944, 943, 946

with the 180gr i need a min or 917 right?

These numbers look erratic with large deviations- weigh out the powder adjusting until i got the ammount right, then press out a 10 round group.

knowing that i need at least a 165 PF, i would go with the 5.4gr loads

1. Your minor load is excessively hot - you only need 750 fps to get to PF 135.

I'd try backing it down to 5.0 gr and try for 725 - 750 fps

2. Your major loads are a little light - which I think is a great idea if you're just starting

out reloading - I'd work them up very slowly, looking for bullet setback (see below).

You need 973 fps to get to PF 175 (most load to at least 170 or 172 PF) just

to make sure you don't "Go Minor" at a match.

BUT, before you change your load, if you're not doing it already, I adjust the powder

scale to where I want it (5.4 gr), and then dump five (5) loads back into the hopper,

and then weigh the next 5 charges - see if they average 5.4 gr. If not, I readjust it, and then throw

five more charges before weighing the next five charges and average them.

This might get you a lower spread of velocity.

I presume when you load .40 Major that you're using a very tight sizing die so you

don't get any bullet setback? I'd be checking for bullet set back, by pushing a

bullet hard, into your work bench and then remeasure the OAL - if the bullet is

being pushed back into the case, you can have some excessive pressure spikes.

[evilbeef54]

Thanks for the quick reply, i have not been checking for setback, just chamber checking any hand cycling through the glock then checking again. The sizing die is the dillon one. If i find i do get set back what do i need to change?

I will try that withthe powder it sounds close to the same as what I'm doing just a few more times thrown in which will probably help

[Youngeyes]

You should be looking at your average fps and the SD. That will give you a better idea of your consistency. +1 to Jack's suggestion on adjusting your powder throws.

[evilbeef54]

Im still trying to figure out how to get this rcbs chrono show me the avg, sd, ed stats, when i hit stats it just shows 11.595 and i can not scroll to anything else, lol

[Hi-Power Jack]

i have not been checking for setback. If i find i do get set back what do i need to change?

Evil, The Big Problem with loading .40 major is using

heavy bullets and fast powder, iff you get any bullet setback,

you have a serious pressure problem.

If you are getting it, you need to size the cartridge cases more

tightly (that increases the neck tension on the bullet, and prevents

bullet setback.

That's the biggest thing to look for in loading .40 major - so I'd

work my way up to major very slowly, and carefully.

[evilbeef54]

ok great thanks, another concern of mine. do you guys leave powder in the hopper or empty the hopper back into the bottle when you are done working for the day? I have just been filling up the hopper and not emptying it when done reloading for the day, then i thought about it and am wondering if this could cause any issues with temp/humidity, as compared to emptying it back into the bottle every time. My setup is in my detached garage, and next to a westerly facing window so it does get afternoon sun daily, and although i do live in Northern California so the temps arent too bad the garage is not heated (or AC)

[ItZallGooD]

Your WSF numbers for the 40 major loads look like the ones I got with a midrange charge of Unique. I tried American Select and Titegroup and they were both noticeably more consistent over the chrono. The Titegroup load only had a 10fps variation and the Amer Select was 15 fps where the Unique loads ran around 30 fps.

[evilbeef54]

hmmm.. ok i have 5 lbs of WSF so i need to make it run the best i can for now, i have heard others saying that TG loaded to major can have pressure issues, is this true?

[Youngeyes]

ok great thanks, another concern of mine. do you guys leave powder in the hopper or empty the hopper back into the bottle when you are done working for the day? I have just been filling up the hopper and not emptying it when done reloading for the day, then i thought about it and am wondering if this could cause any issues with temp/humidity, as compared to emptying it back into the bottle every time. My setup is in my detached garage, and next to a westerly facing window so it does get afternoon sun daily, and although i do live in Northern California so the temps arent too bad the garage is not heated (or AC)

This question you need to go to the search function for.

[evilbeef54]

ok great thanks, another concern of mine. do you guys leave powder in the hopper or empty the hopper back into the bottle when you are done working for the day? I have just been filling up the hopper and not emptying it when done reloading for the day, then i thought about it and am wondering if this could cause any issues with temp/humidity, as compared to emptying it back into the bottle every time. My setup is in my detached garage, and next to a westerly facing window so it does get afternoon sun daily, and although i do live in Northern California so the temps arent too bad the garage is not heated (or AC)

This question you need to go to the search function for.

yeah, thanks, i found the answer to that one, lol, meant to come back and delete that, hah, i emptied the hopper btw

Edited May 10, 2015 by evilbeef54

[tac_driver]

Case: Hornady

Twist: 1:16"

Primer: Winchester SP, Small Pistol

Barrel Length: 4"

Trim Length: .845

BULLET WEIGHT180 GR. BERB FP (Berry's)

Winchester WSF 400 1.125

Starting Loads

5.5 952 27,600 PSI

Maximum Loads

6.0 1,020 33,500 PSI

this is from the Hodgen website

I would use the same head stamp for chronoing and competition shooting

I use winchester cases

case wall measures .011"

so case wall*2+bullet diameter gives you the crimp measurements

.011*2=.022+.400=.422"

I use S&S coated lead diam=.401" my crimp set to .423"

i set the chrono between 10 to 12 feet

target is set at 20yds

i use a shooting rest

i look for groups sub 2" 170 to 175 PF

or 130 to 135 for minor

i make 25 rounds and shoot 10

for the powder bullet combination i will keep

low sd and es is great but the grouping are what's

going to matter the most and the avg velocity

what most people don't know you can

actually loosen the case tension by over crimping,

and end up sizing the bullet diam smaller.

I'm shooting out of a Glock 23 using the OEM barrel

[evilbeef54]

i have not been checking for setback. If i find i do get set back what do i need to change?

Evil, The Big Problem with loading .40 major is using

heavy bullets and fast powder, iff you get any bullet setback,

you have a serious pressure problem.

If you are getting it, you need to size the cartridge cases more

tightly (that increases the neck tension on the bullet, and prevents

bullet setback.

That's the biggest thing to look for in loading .40 major - so I'd

work my way up to major very slowly, and carefully.

ok i made 10 dummy rounds and pushed them hard down against my bench, not getting any set back so that i good

Case: Hornady

Twist: 1:16"

Primer: Winchester SP, Small Pistol

Barrel Length: 4"

Trim Length: .845

BULLET WEIGHT180 GR. BERB FP (Berry's)

Winchester WSF 400 1.125

Starting Loads

5.5 952 27,600 PSI

Maximum Loads

6.0 1,020 33,500 PSI

this is from the Hodgen website

I would use the same head stamp for chronoing and competition shooting

I use winchester cases

case wall measures .011"

so case wall*2+bullet diameter gives you the crimp measurements

.011*2=.022+.400=.422"

I use S&S coated lead diam=.401" my crimp set to .423"

i set the chrono between 10 to 12 feet

target is set at 20yds

i use a shooting rest

i look for groups sub 2" 170 to 175 PF

or 130 to 135 for minor

i make 25 rounds and shoot 10

for the powder bullet combination i will keep

low sd and es is great but the grouping are what's

going to matter the most and the avg velocity

what most people don't know you can

actually loosen the case tension by over crimping,

and end up sizing the bullet diam smaller.

I'm shooting out of a Glock 23 using the OEM barrel

i have my crimp set to just barely knock out the belling, it is right at 4.2, i checked some dummy rounds i took apart and the crimp is not indenting into the bullet. I will try the next chrono session with the same case heads, i was hoping to not have to sort all the brass as i get my brass from police/military/civilian range pick up so i have a few thousand rounds of once shot .40 most of it is FC08, but i also have speer, win, winchester, federal, and a bunch of nickle plated in speer and federal. That is probably a good idea though to run matched case heads during matches, at least bigger matches, although im not sure the mismatched case heads would cause more of a accuracy deviation than i would, haha. The accuracy from a bench seemed good but i am concerned with the speed/felt recoil consistency definitely, i would hate to have some rounds come up short of major at a match that they are checking, and of course i just want everything as consistent and running as good as possible.

I appreciate everyone's help. Still thinking i may return this chrono and try a different brand as i am having several issues with this one.

[tac_driver]

I have the beta master chrony

http://www.shootingchrony.com/images/Beta_Master%20Chrony.jpg

had it enhanced to a Gamma crony 110 strings

i use wooden dowel rods to replace the metal ones

I try to chronograph between 10:00am to 1:00pm

when the sun is high in the sky

usually within +-75 fps of book value

9mm 125gr S&S Casting coated lead roundnose

4.0 titegroup avg 1069

Hodgen site has it listed at avg 1096

what kind of problems are you having?

what type of chronograph is it?

[evilbeef54]

tac_driver here is the thread i started asking for help with the chrono, it is a rcbs

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=214948

[evilbeef54]

ok so i ran some more loads yesterday. 20 rounds all Federal case heads, nickle plated. 1.140 OAL. 5.5 gr WSF 180 gr xtreme FPRN

string one

904, 975, 922, 967, 940, 963, 941, 927, 929, 930

string two

863, 931, 930, 916, 919, 916, 912, 949, 873, 920

looks like to make major of 165 i need 917 FPS with these bullets minimum, 945 would give a buffer of 170 PF. The majority of the rounds are above the min of 917, are these spreads too big?

I set the dial till it made 5.5gr on my 550b, then dropped 10 rounds worth of powder through it, and dropped that back in the top of the hopper, then took an average weight of 5 rounds worth of powder and it was spot on at 5.5gr. They were all matching cases federal nickle plated, all winchester primers.

[Hi-Power Jack]

904, 975, 922, 967, 940, 963, 941, 927, 929, 930

863, 931, 930, 916, 919, 916, 912, 949, 873, 920

I wouldn't feel comfortable with six of the 20 shots

being below PF165 - esp with an 873 and 863.

But, that's just me.

I like to have all 20 shots at 917 or above.

[evilbeef54]

That was kinda what i was thinking too, but do these spreads seem to big? It was kinda windy out and wondering if slight rocking of the chrono could account for that, or if these spreads seem ok? I don't want to unnecessarily go up in powder if there is something i could be doing to get these loads more consistent, but i do want them above the min as well

[Hi-Power Jack]

something i could do to get these loads more consistent?

You've already used same headstamp cases ...

Try a different powder?

[ericjhuber]

So in the way of full disclosure, I don't do reloading, but I did pick up quite a bit of stats-fu during the course of going through business school. I still use statistical analysis to make sure my loads are safe for USPSA. Most of the 40 Long that you get from the larger producers come in at 1.180 OAL and they'll have an average FPS of 950 to 965. I'm using a brand right now that is coming in at around 175 out of my 5" 40 1911.

From what I have gathered most people will fire off a small sample of test loads and rely on the mean of that sample to determine if they're in good shape. The hedging for variance seems to be pegging the target PF around 170+ and making sure the variance isn't nuts.

You can throw most stats-fu at the problem especially if you want to try and ride things a bit closer to your target PF (165 for major, for example). An alternative use case might be for people shooting open who have requirements that their rounds need to between a certain high and low PF to run the gun in an optimal manner.

Some will disagree, but for small sample size situations like these, I like the "confidence interval for the mean" method as one of the tools to throw at the problem. There are free calculators all over the web and I threw together a spreadsheet that does these sort of calculations for me since I like to use Excel to just do my mean, standard deviation, etc calculations for me.

Basically, you pick how certain you want to be and you'll get what the calculator thinks is the high and low scores for the mean based on the mean, sample size, standard deviation, and your desired confidence level. I recommend answering "No" to Mr. Clint Eastwood's question and stick with a confidence level of 95% or 99%.

Regardless of your methodology, getting a copy of Excel will make your life easier when it comes to record keeping and noodling your way through things like this.

So I chucked all of your data into the magic spreadsheet and your "Berry's 180 FPRN 1.140 OAL 5.4 WSF" looks the most promising for additional testing and development. It has a mean of 944.8 and a standard deviation of 11.6. So when I set the confidence interval to 99 percent, you're looking at roughly between a 172 and 168 PF.

I'm with Jack on your 11 May 2015 test rounds. Those 20 rounds give you mean of 926.35 (about a 166 PF), but the standard deviation is 27.6 which is death when you throw it into the calculator. 99% confidence interval gives you a high PF of 169 (good), but a low PF of 163 (bad).

Edited May 19, 2015 by ericjhuber

[evilbeef54]

ok cool thanks, i set it back to RCBS so hopefully i will be getting a new unit soon. Gonna be traveling for work for a bit but once i get back and get the new chrono head unit i will get some more testing and check out the spread sheets