ZAP Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 I am wondering what the consensus of opinion is on the following problem that has recently come to light. Is there a rule to cover this situation? At a local club a special classifier match was held and one individual (the match director no less) turned in a set of (all 4 classifier) score sheets that were identical for both Limited and Limited 10. The same hits the same time and the same recording error on one for both divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnhurd Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 Supposed to be a thing called HONOR. But is seems to be badly bumped and bruised nowdays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 No rule that I know of. Hopefully Sedro would deal with the offend appropriately if the situation was brought to light. That being said, I don't think you should have seprate classification for L and L10. I think the classification should be the SAME, period. This from someone who made M in L10 first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 This situation is covered by something much more broad than the rule book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 I have shot at least 6 classifiers that weren't even set up properly. One was in a fairly large match. I brought the mistakes to the match directors' attention and the results were only pulled once. The others mailed in bogus results to keep the masses from bitching and moaning. There are a whole lot of folks who don't hold the integrity of the classification system in high regard. If you really want to fight this battle, call USPSA headquarters and ask them what they think, but talk to the MD about the practice first. Otherwise, blow it off and just shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 At a local club a special classifier match was held and one individual (the match director no less) turned in a set of (all 4 classifier) score sheets that were identical for both Limited and Limited 10. The same hits the same time and the same recording error on one for both divisions. Shazzam! Whaddya s'pose the odd's are against that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 At a local club a special classifier match was held and one individual (the match director no less) turned in a set of (all 4 classifier) score sheets that were identical for both Limited and Limited 10. The same hits the same time and the same recording error on one for both divisions. Were the "actual" classifiers shot in Limited or L10? What would be the "advantage" gained by doing this???? Was it to gain some kind of advantage or just to get a classification out of the way a little quicker than the "normal" correct manner? I do not condone something like this but it seems to me kinda like the changing guns in the middle of a match - as long as no competitive advantage is gained. If the real classifiers were shot in L10 and the same time and scoring was used for Limited it would still be wrong but not cheating? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I might email my Section Coordinator. In my opinion if the match director is a certified RO they put the sport in a bad light and might fall under the new RO discipline policy. Its not right and the same as dropping a second off of your classifier before sending it in. Is a classifier in reality almost the same with a limited or limited 10 gun Yes but you turn in the score you shoot that you signed up as, not what you "think" you could have done. Yes almost everytime time I have pointed out a classfier was set up wrong it was sent in. I told them don't send it in but you can count it for match finals. Oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 It's B.S. That's it. Don't worry about it though. The MD will get what s/he has coming to him/her one day. JB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I think it is BS also. I also agree completely with L2S that the class should be the same for both by default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Provan Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 "The classification system is able to determine a competitor’s accuracy and speed as those abilities are quantifiable. The system is not able to measure the ability to “game” a stage as those intangible skills are not quantifiable. If competitors are allowed to outsmart the classification course designer the results are meaningless. The primary responsibility for honoring this concept of fairness as it applies to the classification system lies with the competitor. The secondary responsibility is that of the match directors and range officers to ensure that the stages are run properly." This is directly from the 2004 NCCB. I feel this is a form of "gaming" the system. L10 and Limited should have there own set of hit factors. Most stages either require a reload or are less then 10 rounds. How ever there are those that do not require a reload and are over 11 rounds. In these classifiers the L10 shooter is at a disadvantage. Shoot the Classifiers as best as you can and accept the results as they are. This is a good example of your shooting ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richardschennberg Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 If the gun, holster, and mag pouches were legal for Production, then accept only the Production score sheets. Have a trustworthy RO run the shooter one time for each of the other categories. You don't need to be a mind reader to know that he didn't shoot the same hits and time four times in a row. Richard Schennberg.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 The unsportman like behaviour rule does come to mind, but castration and other nasty stuff do linger closer to the forefront..... I just have 1 Q, since I do not know the USPSA Lim/Lim 10 Div's....Can I shoot a Lim 10 gun in Lim? If yes, can I shoot the classifier with the Lim 10 gun and use it as classifier for both Lim and Lim 10....? I don't see a any advantage using a Lim 10 in Lim over a Lim gun.... Before you flame roast the guy - find out what happend.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Provan Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Dead Buff The question is not can a limited gun be used for limited and or limited 10. The question is can you shoot a classifer with a L10 gun and submit the results twice, once for L10 and the other for Limited. At a local club a special classifier match was held and one individual (the match director no less) turned in a set of (all 4 classifier) score sheets that were identical for both Limited and Limited 10. The same hits the same time and the same recording error on one for both divisions. How do I know it was not a limited gun stuffed with 20rds on a classifier that does not require a reload? Is there an advantage gained? Shoot the stage and accept the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 The question is can you shoot a classifer with a L10 gun and submit the results twice, once for L10 and the other for Limited. Exactly what I asked above... Find out what he shot and why the results are identical.... In anycase, IMHO, he earned a DQ or at least 0 for the classifiers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Stirring the pot a little here: If a competitor shoots a classifier with production legal holster and moon clip carrier position, using a revolver that satisfies the criteria for both production and revolver divisions, why couldn't that competitors scores be used for all five divisions, as long as the division appropriate major/minor boxes were checked? On the "not submitting an improperly set classifier" thing --- I've been in that situation as a MD. We set a classifier that had a couple of no shoots, which were supposed to overlap the A-C perf to instead butt up against the target. We didn't submit the classifier ---- but I've always wondered what the real harm would have been. Anyone who would have gotten the bump out of that classifier, would have gotten the bump either there or on the next classifier they shot....... Let's try to keep honor/intent/cheating out of this, if we can. Anyone see serious practical problems? /pot stirring mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Before you flame roast the guy - find out what happend.... Good thinking. Unless you have first hand evidence ie: you personally witnessed this.... From Nik "Stirring the pot a little here: If a competitor shoots a classifier with production legal holster and moon clip carrier position, using a revolver that satisfies the criteria for both production and revolver divisions, why couldn't that competitors scores be used for all five divisions, as long as the division appropriate major/minor boxes were checked?" "Let's try to keep honor/intent/cheating out of this, if we can. Anyone see serious practical problems?" Following with Nik's line of thought, Why not indeed? I did get classified in Open with my Limited gun - no problem (as far as I can see). If I had gotten classified in L 10 with my Open gun ( I did Not) - competitive advantage. I don't think I compromised the rules or the "spirit" of the game?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 his thinking may have been as innocent as this: "These were 6-reload-6 classifiers, and I shot them with a gun that would qualify both in L and in L-10 Div. The scores apply to both divisions, and I turn them in to both". This is not that bad a thought. USPSA requires you to pick on division per match, so you can't approach it like that. But I don't think the individual was necessarily trying to cheat... --D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 One thing that I strongly believe is that club officers, especially Match Director, Stats, and Treasurer need to avoid even the appearance of something wrong. If your shooters feel that an officer is gaming or cheating (whether true or not) will diminish attendance, help, and enthusiasm for local matches. Club officers must demonstrate that the rules always apply to them as much as to everyone else. In this case it may have been completely innocent, but still raises many questions that should not have been. Did this MD pay USPSA for the 2nd set of scores or did this come from club funds? Was there any advantage for the L10 scores? All in all, while probably innocent it was wrong and shouldn’t have happened. A club officer must always consider what I would think if I was on the outside looking in. Appearance of wrong is not a good thing to have and can sour a club very quickly. Travis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 I think we have covered the bases on this one...in particular. I think I have heard this story before...off the forum. I fear we are getting close to naming names...and,Brian's Forum is not the venue for that. So...being a bit proactive here...I am going to close this thread down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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