The dreaded flinch

[actionshooter]

Ok guys (and gals) This is something I have been dealing with for some time (forever).  When I am trying to shoot quick CP (controlled pairs), I will occasionally run a mag dry and not know it. When I pull the trigger I tend to push the muzzle down,I believe this is a uncounsious effort to control muzzle flip. I have been dry firing (a lot) and don't have this problem. It is not severe but it still concerns me.

Any ideas on how to break me?

Steve

[Flexmoney]

Are you still able to call each shot?

Where are the bullets hitting?

[2alpha]

Quit "trying" to shoot controlled pairs. The more you try to control the worse it gets. Stay focused on the front sight and let the gun fire itself. Dry fire works but not if you're not totally focused. If you dry fire for 15 minutes and don't feel mentaly tired you probably weren't focused enough.  

JJ

[ErikW]

Even the top shooters do that and explain it's not a flinch before the shot, but compensating for recoil after the shot.

[actionshooter]

Yes, I can call the shots,most of the time the hits are fairly close together. When I used the term "trying" I wasn't quite accurate,I have noticed this more when I am pushing myself harder.

I can't say that I am mentaly tired after 15 minutes,maybe 25-30 minutes.

 Steve

[Detlef]

if you can't tell that the slide locked back *before* pulling the trigger it means you need more live-fire time behind the gun. Heed all the other advice, and I bet you're going to improve by just getting to *feel* the gun more while shooting. My slide doesn't even lock back on an empty magazine, but I *know* that no round is in the chamber because I am more *in tune* with the gun. Fire a lot, be patient, and your *flinch* will become what it needs to be, no more and no less. Nothing to worry about.

--Detlef

[actionshooter]

Detlef, I have disabled the slide lock.  Thanks for the advice. Steve

[davecutts]

Um.. why, if you can't feel the gun run dry with the slide lock working would you want to disable the slide lock?

As far as the flinch/blink goes I notice that if I am unable (lazy) to practice group shooting at least once a week it will creap up and bite me in the bum.  After a couple of weeks of shooting groups once or twice it subsides, and of course I do better.  I have quite often said that when I first started shooting USPSA my accuracy whent down the toilet.  Through DEcember I wasn't able to get out and practice and now I'm paying for it.

[actionshooter]

Dave, I have never had the slide lock working. First day with gun (grind-grind). The problem occured when the mag had run dry and I wasn't aware. The gun can't lock back except manually.

Steve

[davecutts]

oh very very interesting...

There is a gentalman in the squad I shoot with who also has his slide lock disabled, came like that from the smith, and every so often he runs the pistol dry.  He's an A class shooter, and while there isn't a flinch or what ever, but he'll pull the triger everytime.  I shoot a single stack so, if I have to make a make up shot on steel or a long shot, I quit often go to slide lock.  I've yet to try and pull the trigger.  I don't have to rack the slide like the other guy my thumb hits the release after the mag is seated and I'm getting my grip and we are ready to party.  If I have to take one or more steps I don't even lose time.  

What happens when the slide is down and you pull the trigger on an empty chamber (what are the steps, how much time etc)?

[Carlos]

Terrific drill to help cure for the flinch is:

1: Borrow a revolver

2: load between 1 and 5 rounds (but leave at least 1 chamber empty) Better yet, have a friend load it, not tell you what's in it, and leave it on th table "hot".

3: Shoot slow.

When shooting this drill, you will never know if the thing will go off. You might have 5 dry fires followed by a live one, or any other combination you choose. Your flinches on the empty chamber shots will be obvious; the following shot will likely be flinch-less (is that a word?!?!). D.

[davecutts]

Carlos:

I used to do that every time I went shooting (before I bought a blaster).  Occasionally I still do it, but mostly I'll fill a couple of mags and shooting in to the berm at nothing in particular (this is all from Brian's book so you should know it) trying to watch the sights, or I will empty the mag with my eyes closed to simply feel the recoil, and of course I'll align the sights close my eyes and fire the shot then open my eyes to see if the index is good, and all work for me if I am at the range at least once a week (besides a match, and dry fire of which I should do more of).

I still what to know why people disable their slide lock, especially if they are shooting the gun dry.

[ong45]

I have found that the better i get at calling my shots , the less severe my flinch is. If you have the front sight (or dot ) in clear focus when you pull the trigger , you will see what you are doing. and if you are flinching,  or pulling the gun to one side or the other. it makes it easier to correct. Also, in my case, a big cause of flinch

was fear of the blast and recoil , when i started to see the front sight better, i found out that there was nothing to be afraid of.

My slide lock is also disabled. I would rather not take the chance that the slide will lock open inadvertantly for one stupid reason or another. It isn't hard to plan the stage out so you don't run the gun dry

Keep it up good luck

James Ong

[PaulW]

The "MAIN" reason to disable the slock lock is not so much to prevent the gun from locking open when the mag runs dry, but rather to keep it from locking open when you still have ammo in the magazine.  

[davecutts]

It seems to me that if you gun and mags were tuned right you wouldn't have to worry about an "inadvertent" slide lock.   Not really a problem with single stacks.  

I do make a plan, however even the best-laid plans.... require a quick make up shot or two.  At our matches here at Norco, CA quit often there will be a bank of eight to twelve pepper poppers or assorted steel, and sometimes I miss count, or (heaven forbid) miss a shot.  I am just saying it takes ME less time to slam a new mag home from slide lock and hit the button then it would if I were pulling the trigger doing an oh s*&t, then hitting the reload and having to rack the slide.  

I also practice double Bill drills.  I'll run the gun dry reload and hit the last six.  So I'm getting fast, and I have big hands

[19eleven]

Hey Guys and Gals,

Long time listener, first time caller here. I hope I'm not out of line on this thread. Because there are a couple of questions. I am an older guy, but new to the shooting games. I too have the dreaded low left groups. I can dry fire for an hour and never see it. However, if I throw a dummy in the mix of a live fire session, it's very obvious that I'm anticipating the recoil. The groups are good enough, but pushed and or, pulled left and low. What if I was to adjust the rear sight to compensate for this problem???? Stong hand grip too tight? The front strap is in my second joint with my grip. So I must force my trigger finger back out to hit the center of my finger pad. Is this normal?, or should I try to change my grip? I know this is alot, but any input would be appreciated. This sure is alot of fun. Thanks!!!!

[Flexmoney]

I never advise changing the equipment to fix a human error, if it can be helped.

If you move your sights, when you overcome the flinch, your hits will be off in the other direction.

I don't know anything about your grip... Most often the low-left can be helped by gripping less with the strong hand and more with the weak hand.

[19eleven]

Thanks Flex,

This is what I was thinking. Strong hand too tight, weak hand,not tight enough. I just had to ask about the sight adjustments. You are right about things changing back after the flinching subsides. Was just curious. I appreciate the reply.

[scorch]

Sometimes shooting low is because you are "Milking" the Gun. By milking I mean you tighten your hands just before the gun goes off and the front of your gun dips slightly.

i have a flinch that only shows up when I shoot slower at farther targets, like 20 yards or so. because I shoot a lot of 16-20 splits and when I slow down to 22-28 I shoot low because of the flinch is out of time with what i am use to, Nice group just three to 5 inches low. I never see it in the sight no matter how hard i look, it happens at the same time the gun fires, I guess.

[Grump]

Guys'nGals, I'm not convinced the original poster really has a flinch.

As stated above, timing of the event is key. If all shots are on call, then it's just a McGivern-style learned reflex that was started from trigger stimulus, not recoil stimulus.

If shots are low, like on my third run in my first bowling pin match*, then it's a flinch and needs correction.

Help us out here--do you ever have a shot more than 3 inches _below_ call at only 10 yards?

*I had to aim at the pins' necks to get my good hits by that time. Then fired a borrowed SIG P226 for the first time in my life and had the second-fastest run of the day, 5-for-5 hits.