jimbullet Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) I thought this is best on the 1911 style pistols as it concerns springs and weight of the pistol. I have an STI Edge 40 with a 13 lb variable recoil spring, 17 main spring, ammo is 180gr pf 177. On a string of two shots (double tap), target out at 10 meters, I sometimes find when pushing myself to speed up, that my first shot (from draw) is at dead center A with the second shot being 3-4 inches high. I am wanting to achieve a flatter shooting pistol where the second shot naturally comes back to the original point of aim. I must admit that when the above happens, this is a time that I dont necessarily wait for the sights and its more of just squeezing the trigger faster. These are (from draw) averaging around 1.38seconds (not sure if this means anything) The times that I do wait/ aim (is about 1.60seconds from draw), I do get two Alphas almos side by side. I note that I have read somewhere here that on a bill drill, if the subsequent shots went up, or down, then its likely the combination of springs. My question is if the second shot is high, does that mean I need a heavier recoil spring? Perhaps I need to get my slide lightened so that it goes back faster? I guess I am wanting to know if this might be symptom that I got my set up wrong and may need tweaking. Edited January 25, 2015 by jimbullet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nebwake Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Both slide weight and heavier recoil spring can get the muzzle down faster, but springs "might" cause issues with low PF ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quack Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Tuning your Pistol for Faster Double Taps with Re…: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottlep Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Tuning your Pistol for Faster Double Taps with Re…: I always share the same video when someone asks the same question. Great video that explains it perfectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quack Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Yep, saves from trying to type the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I would spend more time working on grip and tracking your sights, worry about slide and spring weight later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Build4u Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 (edited) There are several things you can try. The first thing I would do is lower the recoil by lowering the power factor of your ammunition down. Depending on how temperature sensitive your powder is and where you travel to, I would try never having a single round go under a 170 pf or average a 172. At that point try the springs some I would think 12 to 14 is the right range. For myself I find it unnatural to not see the sight well enough for the distance I am shooting on every shot at the moment, and if I go to far on that ragged edge I end up not being as smooth or as fast because I am not getting the right visual input. Trying to shoot the Limited Gun like my open gun was not working well, I needed to allow myself that smallest amount of time visually to bring the gun back. It often will not show up in my time at all because I am way more in control. If you watch the video it was done in big jumps of spring weight for emphasis. You can see that to heavy of a spring creates more muzzle rise as well because of the resistance to the spring pressure as well, it does bring it down a bit faster and farther however it went higher to begin with and looks bouncier at the end of the return which is bad through your sights. Track the sight on a single shot with a long follow through on a more distant target to really see what is going on through the cycle. If you go to light the gun will come out of battery faster which can also change what you see through the sights. I never liked a violent feel. I have been shooting a new .40 Limited full dust cover and slide built by Matt Cheely and tried dropping down to an 11 pound spring last night from a 12 standard. I went back to the 12 after a few practice stages because it seemed like It was not coming back quite right. The slide is lightened, and flat topped. I will test again when on the range by myself and will try it at 25 yards to see better what is happening. I have not shot the lightened slide side by side against a regular Edge type build, I will try to shoot a friends on Tuesday, and have him try mine and repost. I am limited to 25 yards indoors with our weather until spring. Practice some drills at a greater distance. I like to do 6 shots at 25 yards as fast as I can keep them all comfortably in the A. When you can do it well it will speed up your closer shots and refine your sight picture. The Bill Drill is to close of shots to monitor how a change on the gun affects it tracking, or recoil for me. The Bill drill is more of a way to insure you are relaxed to have good trigger control, maintain correct arm and grip tension for the gun to track correct and maintain an adequate front sight focus to keep them all in the A zone. A one second draw and five .20 splits and you are there, should not be that hard until you hit the go button and try to push it. Read Brian's book especially about floating and driving the gun. When first published it was a huge help for me in realizing I was doing it but not all the time. In recently coming back to the sport and struggling a bit with the Limited Gun I re read the book and it was a very good oh yeah moment again. It completely changes what I see in recoil. For me I find what I am doing has the same amount of effect as minor changes on my equipment. there is for sure a fine edge to chase with your equipment as well. I hope I am not over blabbing here after being away for 15 years I am plowing back in to what got me to the level I was at back then with the Oh Yeah moments coming a lot faster than the first time through. I was a very early guy in the red dot beginning and had been away from irons since Second Chance ended making Limited a real trip to day camp lol. I hope some part is helpful for you. Edited January 25, 2015 by Build4u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CZinZA Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Jimbullet - I must say my experience is similar to yours. With my cz tactical sports in 40 I changed the stock 15 pound recoil spring (admittedly well used) to an 18 pound spring. My splits on a bill drill went from .50 to .55 down to between .40 and .45 seconds. I found I wasn't waiting as long for the sights to return. I changed back and forth between the springs and the time difference was repeated every time. So now I use the heavier spring. Of course, I'm not very good so maybe things will change over time. So I'll repeat the test from time to time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMike Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 I would spend more time working on grip and tracking your sights, worry about slide and spring weight later I agree with Supermoto. I believe shooting that fast is a matter of timing the second shot. I also believe your timing is just a "little" off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbullet Posted January 26, 2015 Author Share Posted January 26, 2015 You think it's just too fast on the trigger and I should wait for the gun to get back? Unfortunately I wasn't able to time the splits. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supermoto Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 It's not that you are too fast on the trigger. It's that the gun isn't returning to point of aim. Try gripping the gun harder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Watch the video. Tune your gun per the video. Buy the springs and do your range time, THEN start working on your grip and timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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