Ironman trooper division questions

[eddiegunks]

hey all,

i think i wanna try trooper division for the 2015 ironman. it could possible be my last match.......if i don't survive it....but i am gonna try it.

i read the rules but i still have a few questions. troopers must carry all ammo, correct? so does the ammo can (7"x12"x9" or less than 756 cu) apply to trooper division or not?

i would like to try a PCC. how have others attacked this? PCC and no pistol? PCC + pistol and LR rifle and no 5.56 AR? PPC + pistol + AR15 (5.56)? PPC + pistol + Ar15 (6.5 grendel or other larger caliber than 5.56 for teh long range targets) what LR rifle, bolt or an extra upper like a 6.5 grendel AR upper? How about PPC + pistol + 308 AR? am i over thinking this?

there is talk about a long range rifle. do people try this in trooper? how?

for those who have shot a PCC what has been your setup for trooper? would you shoot it again? what would you do different?

what gun combo have people found to work the best with or without the PCC?

thanks

eddie

Edited January 12, 2015 by eddiegunks

[joelogic]

The ammo can is a gimme stored in the trooper stack. You dont have to hump it around.

People may tell you what they have brought before but choosing your own is part of the fun. Travis creates an awesome match and he would say "Bring everything you can carry".

Yes, start exercising now. Carry a LR gun.

The last three years I have shot a JR Carbine in 9mm. This year I did upgrade to a GMR-13. PCC makes trooper, IMHO.

Again this is part of the fun. If you want it to be a field exercise, bring a shotgun, a rifle, and a pistol. If you really want to game the division bring two shotguns, two rifles, a PCC and a pistol.

Just a tip: Gun selection is a small piece of the puzzle. Logistics is the real challenge. How much to bring? How to carry? How to get ready? The match moves fast and you need to be ready stage to stage.

Some years it rains. Some years it is beating hot. Trooper is an awesome division.

Edited January 12, 2015 by joelogic

[SinistralRifleman]

Trooper is the ultimate open division.

You should still bring a pistol in case stage design makes it a benefit or necessary. In years past PCC was less necessary. More recently it has helped a lot.

I'm planning on running a Brethren Arms BAP9 again this year along with a .308 AR for Rifle. For example last year I shot ~700 rounds of 9mm and maybe 300 rounds of real rifle ammo.

Unless you're really good and make the hits with the long range rifle quickly, it's not worth stressing over it. Yes it can help your score but people easily eat up the bonus values by taking too long.

If you want to be better prepared for Trooper I suggest reading my Ironman posts on my blog www.SinistralRifleman.com.

Edited January 12, 2015 by SinistralRifleman

[joelogic]

I think I asked last year but I will ask again. How does the 180 rule apply to a cold slung rifle? Like stage 5 last year. Shoot the first portion PCC, clear and sling, run, shoot shotgun, and reengage with PCC.

[eddiegunks]

great! thanks so far. i will check out the blog.

i ask mainly so i can begin to train (ie shoot) the platforms i plan to use. one of the biggest challenges for me is i am am coming from the east coast....so while i would love to have 2 SG, 2 rifles 2 pistols and a PCC i am sure i cant move them coast to (almost) coast let alone around the range.....

i figured PCC is what makes Trooper. so i am going to bring that for sure. i am just trying to decide on my rifle choice. AR15 or maybe i am better to bring my 308 AR?

anyone ever try Trooper AND tact optics?.....and survived? i mean i am there...after a 2500 mile plane flight.....what a better way to die? lol!

[SinistralRifleman]

Chuck Anderson won Trooper a few years ago then shot Tac Scope and placed well there too. I think he also won the 3GN shoot off as well.

The AMU shooters have often shot both matches too.

[SinistralRifleman]

I think I asked last year but I will ask again. How does the 180 rule apply to a cold slung rifle? Like stage 5 last year. Shoot the first portion PCC, clear and sling, run, shoot shotgun, and reengage with PCC.

That's a stage by stage determination usually. There have been years where we couldn't do that and we actually had to use our pistols at times.

[Chuck Anderson]

Chuck Anderson won Trooper a few years ago then shot Tac Scope and placed well there too. I think he also won the 3GN shoot off as well.

The AMU shooters have often shot both matches too.

Chuck Anderson shot like crap in the Tac Scope match and thought his fat ass was going to die by the end of the match. At least that's what I heard.

[Chuck Anderson]

My gear for the years I shot Trooper was pretty straight forward. Open rifle, open shotgun, Limited pistol with big ass mags. I did haul around a Long Range rifle till we shot it, then I dumped it and was done. It worked out for me time wise, but not by a huge amount. The biggest advantage over Tac is being able to use an Open shotgun. Seen a bunch of guys show up and just use a tube gun with a 12 round tube. With the high round count of the Ironman they don't do as well as having a mag fed SG. I have yet to see an XRail make it through the match without major failures, but it's been a couple years since I shot Trooper so they may be working fine now.

As far as a PCC, I've never brought one. I preferred to use the extra weight for ammo and a spare pistol. But I'm pretty good with a handgun. If you can hit with a pistol out to 80 yards or so on a big 18 x 24 plate and at 40 yards on an 8" plate you should be good with a pistol. If not, bring a PCC. Ideally one that takes the same mags as your handgun. Just saves a bit on gear.

The biggest thing is bringing gear that works. Bring equipment you trust and have a few spare parts to fix what may break. A spare headspaced BCG and trigger group for the AR won't hurt and doesn't take up much space and weight. Small parts for the pistol and whatever you need for the SG. It's worth it because you can't just borrow your buddies gun if yours craps out.

The other thing, and I didn't figure this out till after the first year. Take gallon size ziploc bags and put all your rifle and pistol ammo in them. You'll be able to fit a lot more in your staging can that way and won't have to carry everything with you each day. The SG stuff stacks pretty well without removing it from the boxes.

[SinistralRifleman]

http://sinistralrifleman.com/2015/01/05/inside-my-3-gun-range-pack/

[eddiegunks]

thanks chuck. that was very informative.

anyone else have similar "what is good/ what is not so good" stories?

i will go out and see if i could be classified as good with a pistol as prescribed above. the PCC just sounds so fun.

i am going to load up some hot 110grain 9mm and see how i do out at 100-150.

i was thinking about using the PCC for most everything and maybe a 308ar for the longer stuff.

too many choices!

thanks for the suggestions on parts. i have an extra BCG and small parts kit already. i am not sure what extra parts i may need for my glock 34....suggestions?

i wish i have a mag fed SG.......i hope my tube feed SG holds up.

thanks again.

eddie

[nguySBR1]

I've been going to Ironman since 2006, and have shot Trooper div each year. These are my suggestions:

Bring guns that work...

Bring guns that are zero'd, and you have some DOPE for each of them (shotgun slug... rifle... PCC... don't over think the pistol)

Bring mags that work, and cleaning supplies for cleaning ALL of your mags.

If your gun is custom raced out thing, bring spare parts (glock34 if stock, just bring a spare spring set, guide rod, and mags).

The best spare part is a spare gun...

Bring twice the amount of ammo listed for rifle, pistol, and slugs. Bring atleast 300birdshot that you know works in your shotgun.

Consider some heavier shot like #6. Don't go crazy here, just get some game loads in the 1300FPS range. Make sure your SG will run em.

Have the ability to attach a sling to all long guns, all at the same time...

Get a quality back pack of some type. Learn how to loud it, wear it, learn how to adjust it long before you get to the match (backpacker/hiking forum, or store in your area is very helpful in this regard).

Bring enough ammo in pack, mags, rifle bags, ect to shoot 6 stages each day. This way you will have enough ammo each day.

Bring some snacks in your pack. Include some powder drink mix. Remember Trooper includes all food and drinks (other then water) for the entire match. Lunch is a given and not packed, but snacks have to start with you and go with you throughout the match.

The ammo cache can is a spare loud out. Keep the big bulky stuff there. SG ammo is big and heavy. Figure out how to pack as much in the cache can as possible. The listed can is basically a fat 50cal can. You will be amazed how much ammo can get stuffed into one if you are creative in packing it.

Bring proper clothing for all seasons. Its June, but we have seen rain, snow, rain, thunderstorms, rain, wind/dust storms, and rain. Being prepared for this will be helpful. Consider a small tarp or cover for you pack and gear. Not every range has an overhead cover, and space will be limited in the event of rain.

SUNSCREEN is a must...

DO NOT get hung up on any one aspect of the Ironman. Just go shoot it.

[Chuck Anderson]

thanks chuck. that was very informative.

anyone else have similar "what is good/ what is not so good" stories?

i will go out and see if i could be classified as good with a pistol as prescribed above. the PCC just sounds so fun.

i am going to load up some hot 110grain 9mm and see how i do out at 100-150.

i was thinking about using the PCC for most everything and maybe a 308ar for the longer stuff.

too many choices!

thanks for the suggestions on parts. i have an extra BCG and small parts kit already. i am not sure what extra parts i may need for my glock 34....suggestions?

i wish i have a mag fed SG.......i hope my tube feed SG holds up.

thanks again.

eddie

For the 34 the easiest is to just carry a spare. Even if it's just a 17. If you do carry spare parts I keep a complete trigger group for each gun in the kit. Trigger housing, bar, connector, ejector, complete spring kit, guide rod and a striker. If you have a spare barrel it wouldn't hurt. Do not show up for the Ironman with the stock plastic sights. You won't go home with them.

Two other things. Bring a retention holster for the pistol. The Safariland 6378 is the best for the Glock 34. Hands down. And bring some hot pistol ammo for the spinners.

[Stlhead]

So Chuck, just to be clear, if you are a Grand Wizard pistol shooter, you do not need a PCC. Bring a spare pistol, a retention holster, and a mag fed shotgun.

I was going to add a bunch of smart ass observations from watching you and others shoot trooper, as well as my own personal stupidity, but nobody has got time for that anymore so instead I will be serious.

The PCC is the spare to your pistol, no need to bring two pistols AND a PCC just bring a PCC, if you can't then bring two pistols, even if one is a baby, as long as they use the same mags.

If you only bring one shotgun and it is made in Turkey or Russia you are playing with fire. The biggest reason people get bumped out of trooper is a catastrophic shotgun failure and mag fed shotguns are very prone to such failures. You can chirp about how your XYZ is the shiznit, but shotguns are the weakest link.

Lunch is off the clock, water is provided at every stage, the rule is you must carry a bottle of water the whole time, but other than that you don't need to carry a pantry of snacks that you most likely won't eat. Just throw a bottle of water in the bottom of your pack and bring an empty one to refill at the water stations all day.

Babywipes, glass cleaners, spare plugs, spare glasses, rags, hockey tape, 550 cord, spare parts (if you don't have a spare gun), slings, support devices, magazines, ammo. And a way to carry all your shit.

Simple is better, simple and efficient is better yet, the distance to travel is not that great, multi use items are your friend.

Fancy specialized gear will not move you up the score sheet as far as good shooting will. Busted gear can cause a good shooter to loose, but excellent gear will not cause an inferior shooter to win.

Trooper is not for everyone, but those that dig it really dig it. It is worth a try.

[Chuck Anderson]

I've never toted a PCC around at Ironman so from my perspective everything is based off carrying a pistol. I have seen way more PCC's break than Glocks, but that's just me. And two pistols is still way lighter than a PCC. There are also a lot of stages that a pistol is just easier to use and deal with than a PCC. So even if I was bringing a PCC, I'd still plan on bringing the pistols, and a retention holster.

As far as the shotgun, they are all weak. There aren't any combat designed shotguns out there. The AR and Glock are both designed with battle in mind and are reliable. Shotguns are all designed from the perspective of bird hunters. Even ones like the Saiga and Akdal are basically toys instead of tools. That said, I've seen just as many match ending failures with tube guns as I have with mag fed guns. Actually more. Part of that is I've seen a freaking lot more tube guns, but they are all still prone to puking or breaking.

If I had my choice, and could only pick one gun to bring a back up for the shotgun would be it in a heartbeat. But I can't afford a second and it's heavy. The pistol is a no brainer to bring a backup. No space and it's light.

[Stlhead]

Remember Chuck that you are a super razzu pistol shooter and you look at stages with your abilities in mind, some of us lack your godlike pistol skills and find that a PCC can be helpful.

I can see now that I did not make my point about the shotgun clear enough. I am recommending bringing a spare shotgun no matter what sort you choose, but if you shoot a detachable mag fed shotgun ( or a turret mag fed shotgun)I think it is nearly mandatory.

[eddiegunks]

thanks nguySBR1

very insightful.

i had a retention holster.

i am planning on the 34, vinci SG, pcc, and either a SCAR 16 (possibly an AR ) or 17 if i feel i need a 308.

i am fairly proficient with all my rifle platforms. pistol is good. the vinci is new to me this season, i will run it hard.....lets see what falls off it.....if anything.

keep it coming.....if nothing else it is motivating me!

cheers

eddie

[SinistralRifleman]

BAP 9mm 2014. I got this gun like 2 days before I left for the match, you can tell I get faster with it the more practice I get using it at the match. lol.

Edited January 15, 2015 by SinistralRifleman

[SinistralRifleman]

9mm AR 2013

[SinistralRifleman]

The VEPR-12 works pretty well if you don't screw with it. The biggest issue is SGM mags require significant reworking to be reliable.

In addition to the above advice, make sure you're using all your gear at least 3 months in advance. I've been using matches to write articles about guns for the past year, so I ended up having maybe 2-3 weeks where I actually had everything I was going to use at the match and the first half felt like I was just getting used to all the guns and optics. I also had some stuff break last minute before the match that made me lose confidence and had me nervous about the fixes. Somehow I pulled off 6th/30 in trooper with all that going on.

Edited January 15, 2015 by SinistralRifleman

[nguySBR1]

The nice thing about Trooper div: no limits on how many guns you bring or use. You just have to carry all of em stage to stage in one trip, on your person.

I have shot Trooper using a 6.8SPC AR (3x), multiple AR15's in 223/556, and twice with 308 rifles (poof 308, and scarH). The 308 rifle works fine, just have plenty of mags, plan your stage around your reloads, and don't miss a lot.

Have a good zero on the PCC (have a red dot sight, and know the holds out too 100yds), use it for stages out to 100yds, and use the scarH for anything with longer distances. The double spinner goes over in two hits with 175gr FGMM out too 150yds (done with a scarH prone on bipod). 145-150gr ball ammo spins it in 3-5hits.

Bring a second shotgun as a back up, or for new york reload for slugs.

[eddiegunks]

Great info. Thx for the videos.

So can you stage "extra" guns like the sg, or do you have to carry it down the stage with you while you shoot?

Now you all got me worried about my sg going down.

Thanks

Edited January 15, 2015 by eddiegunks

[ziebart]

You can stage preloaded shotguns. I watched a few people "reload" that way when ROing it. While simple may be better in terms of equipment staying reliable using all the guns that trooper allows seems like one of the bigger reasons to shoot it.

[eddiegunks]

thanks ziebart,

what about the ammo can? do we have to carry it or can we just stage that someplace? i do not fully understand how the ammo can comes into play.

can we only use the ammo in our packs and the ammo in the ammo can for the entire match? no bringing extra right? where does the can live/stay/ how does it move? with us in our fully loaded push?

thanks

[Stlhead]

Re-read the rules, the ammo can is pretty clearly explained.