Target Variety at 3GN Nationals/"Rumble at the Range"

[Langenator]

I will first caveat this by noting that I do not have cable TV, and thus I can only see what people post on Youtube of FB (Thanks Jesse!)

But is it just me, or is there a serious lack of target variety in the stages for the Pro Series Nationals (from this past weekend)?

All of the stages seemed to be different combinations of the same three things:

1) Rifle plate rack at about 75-100m
2) Pistol plates or poppers
3) Shotgun clays (stationary) or poppers.

No Texas stars, Polish plate racks, spinners, or popper-pigeon launcher combos.

I understand that certain concessions must be made to make things TV-friendly. 2 shooters shooting at targets 500m downrange, while a great test of skill, doesn't work that well on TV. Likewise, few people want to watch a duel of shotgun loading speed.

But what prevents the use of Texas stars or Polish plate racks? I know they'd be slower than just blazing through a row of steels or poppers, but I'm pretty sure Miculek or Horner can probably clean one faster than I can empty my pistol into the berm. And I think a bank of 4 popper-pigeon launcher combo targets would be great on TV (although not so great for stages run after sundown.)

(Originally posted on the 3GN forum on arf.com, but this place gets more traffic)

[Shooter115]

If you're talking about the Man V. Man shootoffs. I would say it's because the targets have to be as consistent as absolutely possible.

[kurtm]

Reset time, Reset time, Reset time, other than that they consider reset time

[Flatland Shooter]

Minor point but I thought the rifle plate rack was set at 50 yards. Or is it further out?

[EaZeNuTZ33]

In the shootoff scenario, you cannot trust two different Texas Stars where one's bearings are slowing it down 5-10% compared to the other, or one clay flipper tossing a clay 8' in the air when the other tosses it 15' in the air... giving an advantage to one shooter over the other. Things need to be 100% equitable for a fair shootoff to definitively determine who earned the win. All steel is painted between each shooter, so you can often SEE fresh paint being blown off the targets. All of the targets are falling steel or frangible clays.....no paper edges to check for an extra shot. The straight head to head shootoffs are also a straight drag race......who can get to the finish first....not who saw the better way to way to shoot the stage.

The Regionals are a different story and are much more like traditional outlaw matches with flipped clays, spinning plate racks, low ports, walls,....

They're two completely different types of matches with two different purposes. The Rumble on the Range is a one time per year shootoff with top 3GN Pros, outlaw matches and Regionals by 3GN are more in line with what you are mentioning.

[Stlhead]

In the shootoff scenario, you cannot trust two different Texas Stars where one's bearings are slowing it down 5-10% compared to the other, or one clay flipper tossing a clay 8' in the air when the other tosses it 15' in the air... giving an advantage to one shooter over the other. Things need to be 100% equitable for a fair shootoff to definitively determine who earned the win. All steel is painted between each shooter, so you can often SEE fresh paint being blown off the targets. All of the targets are falling steel or frangible clays.....no paper edges to check for an extra shot. The straight head to head shootoffs are also a straight drag race......who can get to the finish first....not who saw the better way to way to shoot the stage.

The Regionals are a different story and are much more like traditional outlaw matches with flipped clays, spinning plate racks, low ports, walls,....

They're two completely different types of matches with two different purposes. The Rumble on the Range is a one time per year shootoff with top 3GN Pros, outlaw matches and Regionals by 3GN are more in line with what you are mentioning.

So some targets are fair enough for National championships, and for everyday shooters, but not fair enough for 3GN pro shooters? I think I am going to go with Kurt's first answer. Painting steel between shooters is the norm for all man on man, and should be more commonly practiced.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

In the shootoff scenario, you cannot trust two different Texas Stars where one's bearings are slowing it down 5-10% compared to the other, or one clay flipper tossing a clay 8' in the air when the other tosses it 15' in the air... giving an advantage to one shooter over the other. Things need to be 100% equitable for a fair shootoff to definitively determine who earned the win. All steel is painted between each shooter, so you can often SEE fresh paint being blown off the targets. All of the targets are falling steel or frangible clays.....no paper edges to check for an extra shot. The straight head to head shootoffs are also a straight drag race......who can get to the finish first....not who saw the better way to way to shoot the stage.

The Regionals are a different story and are much more like traditional outlaw matches with flipped clays, spinning plate racks, low ports, walls,....

They're two completely different types of matches with two different purposes. The Rumble on the Range is a one time per year shootoff with top 3GN Pros, outlaw matches and Regionals by 3GN are more in line with what you are mentioning.

So some targets are fair enough for National championships, and for everyday shooters, but not fair enough for 3GN pro shooters? I think I am going to go with Kurt's first answer. Painting steel between shooters is the norm for all man on man, and should be more commonly practiced.

Yes....if everyone is shooting the exact same Texas Star in that exact stage, it's as close to the same for every competitor as possible. In a head to head competition where one Texas Star drops an extra plate if you hit the arm and the other doesn't, you are giving a marked advantage to the shooters on the left or right side.

When it comes to the regular 3GN Pro Series matches, they are more in line with most matches, but (as Kurt pointed out) reset and repeatability are the biggest concerns there. At the 3GN Regionals, we have shot Texas stars, spinning plate racks between stacks of barrels,.....but they are stages where everyone is shooting the same targets that are expected to be reset the same for each competitor, and even have lines painted on the ground to insure that presentation remains the same for each competitor.

[Chuck Anderson]

In the shootoff scenario, you cannot trust two different Texas Stars where one's bearings are slowing it down 5-10% compared to the other, or one clay flipper tossing a clay 8' in the air when the other tosses it 15' in the air... giving an advantage to one shooter over the other. Things need to be 100% equitable for a fair shootoff to definitively determine who earned the win. All steel is painted between each shooter, so you can often SEE fresh paint being blown off the targets. All of the targets are falling steel or frangible clays.....no paper edges to check for an extra shot. The straight head to head shootoffs are also a straight drag race......who can get to the finish first....not who saw the better way to way to shoot the stage.

The Regionals are a different story and are much more like traditional outlaw matches with flipped clays, spinning plate racks, low ports, walls,....

They're two completely different types of matches with two different purposes. The Rumble on the Range is a one time per year shootoff with top 3GN Pros, outlaw matches and Regionals by 3GN are more in line with what you are mentioning.

So some targets are fair enough for National championships, and for everyday shooters, but not fair enough for 3GN pro shooters? I think I am going to go with Kurt's first answer. Painting steel between shooters is the norm for all man on man, and should be more commonly practiced.

Think of it this way. How many matches have you shot where there are two sets of stages set up? Shooter A shoots one set of stages and shooter B shoots the other set. That's what you're looking at with a man on man Shootoff. If everyone shoots the same stage who cares if the second star spins faster than the first one. You have to shoot both.

[Stlhead]

Knock overs fall differently, stands move when shot, plate racks can be just as fallible as stars, wind can be different, the sun can cast shadows, life is not fair nor is our sport or these shoot offs. I could care less what they shoot, but Don't tell me they make it boring to be more fair, 3gn is ran to make a profit, that is the only motivation behind it same as any business. The product they are selling is not interesting, it is like porn staring average folks enjoying the missionary position under a blanket. Fun for those staring, but no draw for the rest of us. If you want to sell us a show give us giant fake tits, crazy wild shit that we know is pushing the envelope. Or not.

[Uber]

Reset time, Reset time, Reset time, other than that they consider reset time

Reset time doesnt really have anything to do with it at the championship. They have 10 people to reset 3 arrays on each side, and allow for up to 5 minutes between each run.

I am going with consistant target reaction. No two stars spin the same speed and the same goes for polish plate racks.... Throwers never throw clays the same height, etc.

[Uber]

Knock overs fall differently, stands move when shot, plate racks can be just as fallible as stars, wind can be different, the sun can cast shadows, life is not fair nor is our sport or these shoot offs. I could care less what they shoot, but Don't tell me they make it boring to be more fair, 3gn is ran to make a profit, that is the only motivation behind it same as any business. The product they are selling is not interesting, it is like porn staring average folks enjoying the missionary position under a blanket. Fun for those staring, but no draw for the rest of us. If you want to sell us a show give us giant fake tits, crazy wild shit that we know is pushing the envelope. Or not.

You are right, targets do fall differently, but it doesnt matter if any of the targets fall slow or fast, as long as you shoot the stop plate on you last shot. Watch some of the fast runs... Poppers are still falling after the stop plate is down. The only thing that matters is that you dont shoot a plate after the stop plate is hit.

As for stands moving when shot, if a stand is shot, it is replaced with an identical stand to the original, with the same measurement and placement. Trust me, Rob literally spends days measuring and recording everything.

The only thing in the shoot of that isnt fair, is if you draw the side you dont like, ie. shooting left to right or right to left. However, that is determined by your seed in the tournament, so it is somewhat fair.