Low ready and port arms

[Outsydlooknin75]

Please define low ready and port arms starts for both rifle and shotgun.

[usmc1094]

Low ready the buttstock is in your shoulder with the muzzle pointed in a downward angle. Port arms the buttstock is on or near your belt, near your hip/front pocket with the muzzle pointed up and out in front of your eyes.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Do you have to have your hands anywhere specific on the gun?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

2nd post correct, 3rd post wrong.

[Jesse Tischauser]

What about your head? Do you need to have a good cheek weld or can you be looking wherever?

[Jesse Tischauser]

How far down or up does the muzzle need to be? Bottom of the target for low ready? Top of the target for port arms?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

At the Noveske match, the ROs were instructed that the muzzle had to be at or above the eyes and the buttstock at or below the belt for port arms. That was the start position for every stage where the long-gun was in the competitors hands. Their first or second stage, they got it figured out and then it was the same for the rest of the match. USPSA has a rule for "unspecified." which is below.

3.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless

otherwise specified, for a handgun start, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with

arms hanging naturally by the sides. For a rifle or shotgun start, unless otherwise specified, the

competitor must stand erect and relaxed, with the firearm held in both hands, stock touching

the competitor at hip level, muzzle pointing downrange and with the finger out of the trigger

guard. Different stages may require the “ready position” to be prone, kneeling, sitting or as

otherwise stated in the written stage briefing. A course of fire may permit a competitor to start a

stage with a long gun mounted into the shoulder and pointing towards targets.

If you are shooting outlaw and there is no rule, then you can "Jesse Definition" all you want. However, there are, within dictionaries, specific definitions of Port Arms.

[Benelli Chick]

Low Ready is our default position. Butt stock in shoulder, muzzle below belt. Sometimes, we may have something for you to be pointing at for low ready.

Since, it's low READY, hands should be on the gun so you're ready to shoot. Strong hand in position by trigger, off hand on hand guard.

If you are truly low ready, you should be able to bring up the gun and pull the trigger...umm, hopefully at a target.

[Jesse Tischauser]

....

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

Do your fingers have to be interlaced around the or can the hands simply be touching the gun?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[Jesse Tischauser]

If you have an extended magazine tube that extends beyond the end if the barrel does it have to be above eye level or below the belt or does the tip of the muzzle specifically have to break those planes?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

Jesse, you are correct. I had several shooters at Noveske ask me this "Can the loading port be facing up?" to which I replied, "Buttstock at or below belt, muzzle at or above eyes". The staff was explicitly told that both hands on firearm, buttstock at or below belt, muzzle at or above eyes...nothing more regardless of their opinion. If I wanted to default to the "unspecified", it is a little less controlled as the angle and orientation of the firearm is less specific. So if I wanted to start with a shotgun under my arm, left hand on port, stock touching belt somewhere, that is not prevented using the "unspecified" start position in the USPSA MG rules.

In USPSA, it is the muzzle, the magazine tube is irrelevant.

Edited September 16, 2014 by MarkCO

[Jesse Tischauser]

The point Adam and I were discussing on Facebook is can you start with the shotgun upside down when the start position is simply stated as "Low Ready" Or "Port Arms". There really is no argument about the rifle being upside down because all you want to do with that is get the muzzle on target so you can shoot ASAP. In fact the argument with the rifle is usually how low or high does the muzzle have to be to keep you satisfactorily off target. We've all see that gamer low ready with the muzzle pointed at the bottom of the target. With the shotgun we may want to load before we shoot. So getting on target fast is not always the shooters objective.

My argument is that since there is no written definition of either of those two terms in any 3-gun rule book that I have seen. So you have to define them in the stage briefing or live with each RO's personal definition of them. Personally I like to shoot a fair match. In my experience leaving start position definitions up to RO's leads to inconsistencies which usually means unfairness.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

Under USPSA rules, not prevented, you can.

I agree with you Jesse. The job of the RM is to keep the stages consistent. The job of the RO is to run the stage exactly the same for every competitor. I tell my staff continually, NO AD LIB, read the stage description verbatim every time, NO AD LIB, no tips or tricks and NO AD LIB. The start position on some stages can be significant.

However, if the course designer missed something that a competitor finds, and there is no rule or course procedure description preventing it, so be it, as long as it is safe.

I hate finding a "better way" and the RO says I "can't do it that way because no one else has"...horsepucky.

Edited September 16, 2014 by MarkCO

[Outsydlooknin75]

And here is my argument. Port arms is a drill position, when given the command to be at Port arms have your weapon upside down and see what happens.

Low ready, part of that designation is "ready". If the gun is sideways on your shoulder or upside down you aren't ready to engage targets.

[MarkCO]

You can make that argument, but I was never in the military and I have seen a lot of variation in photos of those who were. On the low ready, if I want to load first, I am "more" ready if I am in the proper position to load.

[Jesse Tischauser]

The whole point of the start position is that nobody has an advantage over anyone else, correct? It's fair for everyone.

Since shotgun loading had changed in the last few years it is advantageous to have the gun upside down if you plan to load after the buzzer rather than shoot. Who's to say that we need to be ready to shoot versus being ready to load? Why give the shooters that want to shoot first an advantage over shooters that want to load first?

If the start position is port arms a weakhand quad loader has an advantage as all they need to do is drop the gun and load if the gun starts upside down.

If the start position is low ready strong hand quad loader has an advantage as all they need to do is lift the gun into their shoulder and load the gun if the gun starts upside down.

Do we need to eliminate both start pistons to make a match fair or as an RM/MD or do we incorporate both equally?

I guess we could simply never start with shotgun too.

Edited September 16, 2014 by Jesse Tischauser

[co-exprs]

RO consistency has been a local topic recently. We have a heavy USPSA pistol crowd in our area, but 3 gun is still the new kid on the block here in Eastern Colorado. Experienced staff can be tough to come by here. It's getting tougher and tougher each year as more and more, people really only have the capacity to show up and shoot the match. So.... Mark and I have been discussing, how we can get the general 3gun community more practice at consistent application of the rules, in our local matches. Volunteer RO's can't be expected to show up to work the one match a year, which features a singular rule set, and do it accurately. The USPSA rules, used at the annual Colorado Noveske match are not universally applied in our area. In addition, the USPSA rule book is 79 pages long. I've read the rules a dozen times and each time I read it, I still find some little detail I missed. We will be using the USPSA rule set at our local shotgun matches and I took the time to draw up stage descriptions and briefings same as at the bigger shotgun challenge. The goal is to get everyone accustomed to doing each stage briefing the same way, every time, with the rules consistently applied all the time.

[Jesse Tischauser]

RO consistency has been a local topic recently. We have a heavy USPSA pistol crowd in our area, but 3 gun is still the new kid on the block here in Eastern Colorado. Experienced staff can be tough to come by here. It's getting tougher and tougher each year as more and more, people really only have the capacity to show up and shoot the match. So.... Mark and I have been discussing, how we can get the general 3gun community more practice at consistent application of the rules, in our local matches. Volunteer RO's can't be expected to show up to work the one match a year, which features a singular rule set, and do it accurately. The USPSA rules, used at the annual Colorado Noveske match are not universally applied in our area. In addition, the USPSA rule book is 79 pages long. I've read the rules a dozen times and each time I read it, I still find some little detail I missed. We will be using the USPSA rule set at our local shotgun matches and I took the time to draw up stage descriptions and briefings same as at the bigger shotgun challenge. The goal is to get everyone accustomed to doing each stage briefing the same way, every time, with the rules consistently applied all the time.

Well said!

[Outsydlooknin75]

Time to put on the range lawyer hat for a moment. Most stage briefs say engage targets as they become visible or available. If you have a target that is visible or available immediately, shouldn't you be engaging that target and not loading unless you had to? If you truly were ready to engage then immediately after the buzzer you would be and not loading.

Like was said it's consistncy that we are after. I know certain RM's have said port arms is full grip on the grip and full grip on the forearm, the finger hovering over the safety is not port arms, muzzle is at the shoulder. Ammo is not allowed in the weak hand because port arms is gun in hands only.

[MarkCO]

Time to put on the range lawyer hat for a moment. Most stage briefs say engage targets as they become visible or available. If you have a target that is visible or available immediately, shouldn't you be engaging that target and not loading unless you had to? If you truly were ready to engage then immediately after the buzzer you would be and not loading.

Like was said it's consistncy that we are after. I know certain RM's have said port arms is full grip on the grip and full grip on the forearm, the finger hovering over the safety is not port arms, muzzle is at the shoulder. Ammo is not allowed in the weak hand because port arms is gun in hands only.

Your first paragraph sounds more like an IDPA perspective than a USPSA perspective. USPSA is by its very nature Freestyle. The boundaries are set and the competitor solves the problem. IDPA is prescriptive, which limits ingenuity and accentuates certain skills over others.

As for the second paragraph, in USPSA, ammo is never allowed in the hand. Also, unless for safety, USPSA does not allow the RM to make arbitrary rulings. If the rule is in the rulebook, it must be followed, if unlcear, DNROI interpretation must be sought. The stage procedure is set by the course designer. If the SAME stage briefing is read to everyone, then how is that inconsistent? If a loophole is found, the stage designer can learn from it, provided the whole nature of Freestyle is preserved.

[Outsydlooknin75]

This isn't uspsa rulings this is Outlaw 3 gun

[MarkCO]

This isn't uspsa rulings this is Outlaw 3 gun

That is your opinion, but there are several 3Gun matches that are run under USPSA rules. Most 3Gun competitors know and understand the USPSA ruleset, not so with Outlaw rules. Also, while many 3Gunners have a visceral hate of USPSA, IPSC was present at, and sanctioned the first 3Gun matches before they became SOF. Furthermore, the IMGA ruleset, and frankly all the others, copied major portions of the USPSA rules, deleting the sections they did not like. Like it or not, USPSA is more consistent than the other rule sets except for SMM3G which is where IMGA started.

If you want to talk about Outlaw, then fine, but you need a separate thread for each match, maybe even each match and MD/RM under the same ruleset.

Edited September 16, 2014 by MarkCO

[Outsydlooknin75]

This was never about uspsa rule set. This was about defining a start position. Define low ready and port arms start positions.

And I belive that a lot more 3 gun matches are using a modified 3 gun nation rule set than a uspsa rule set.

[MarkCO]

Sure, and I was using USPSA rules as examples to answer Jesse's question. You can use whatever you want, but you can't tell me how to answer Jesse's question...I still live in America.