8.7???

[sleipnir]

So I'm taking my NROI Review Exam.

Question is: "In the United Stages, can a competitor take a sight picture after the "Load and Make Ready" command?"

I'm looking at section 8.7 Sight Pictures and Range Inspection (pp56 January 2004 Edition Rule Book).

8.7.1 prohibits sight picture with a loaded gun

8.7.2 allows match organizers to also prohibit taking a sight picture with an unloade firearm.

8.7.3 permits a sight picture with an uloaded gun when permitted.

But I see this: "US8.7.1 Not applicable" and "US8.7.2 Not applicable" "US8.7.3 Not applicable"

How am I to interpret that? Does the rule book mean that in the United States rule 8.7.1, 8.7.2 and 8.7.3 are not applicable? Or is this simply some artifact left over by sloppy editors??

A second, somewhat related question. Several places in the rulebook competitors are prohibited from doing something but given a pardon -- "violation will result in a warning for the first occurence and one procedural penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match".

How in the world is the RO who calls the competitor for doing whatever the warning was about supposed to know that he was called about it earlier in the match. What are we going to do mark their foreheads with a felt-tip marker? Expect the competitor to volunteer that they violated the rules a second (third, fourth) time?

I'm not a big fan of some of our new rules.

[Dead Buff]

I got no idea what the USPSA rules look like so I'll let the experts answer that part.

The second part about warnings is easy. Every RO just has to write it on the score sheets...and someons at stats will/should pick it up and add the proc's....

just my 0.02

[kevin c]

The way the book documents how the USPSA rules differ from the IPSC rules caught me exactly in the same section too. Vince Pinto set me straight, and the official answer is that those "not applicable" notations mean that those IPSC rules do not appy in the US region. IOW, those rules don't exist when shooting matches according to USPSA rules.

[Jim Norman]

Dead,

The traveling warning is not applicable in the US. (Thankfully!)

With respect to this, just where does the proceedural get applied? Figure in one case the shooter is moving from a 10 round 50 point stage to a 32 round 160 point stage and in another case the situation is exactly the opposite, moving from a 160 to a 50 point stage. The effect of the proceedural for the same infraction is not the same for each competitor.

In the case where you move to a large stage, 10 points amounts to 6.25% of the available points and in the other case it amounts to 20% of the available points.

Jim Norman

[Dead Buff]

Since times should be recorded on the SS, it will be easy to determine the warning and subsequent proc....

[mactiger]

So I'm taking my NROI Review Exam.

Question is: "In the United Stages, can a competitor take a sight picture after the "Load and Make Ready" command?"

I'm looking at section 8.7 Sight Pictures and Range Inspection (pp56 January 2004 Edition Rule Book).

8.7.1 prohibits sight picture with a loaded gun

8.7.2 allows match organizers to also prohibit taking a sight picture with an unloade firearm.

8.7.3 permits a sight picture with an uloaded gun when permitted.

But I see this: "US8.7.1  Not applicable" and "US8.7.2 Not applicable" "US8.7.3  Not applicable"

How am I to interpret that? Does the rule book mean that in the United States rule 8.7.1, 8.7.2 and 8.7.3 are not applicable? Or is this simply some artifact left over by sloppy editors??

A second, somewhat related question. Several places in the rulebook competitors are prohibited from doing something but given a pardon -- "violation will result in a warning for the first occurence and one procedural penalty for each subsequent occurrence in the same match".

How in the world is the RO who calls the competitor for doing whatever the warning was about supposed to know that he was called about it earlier in the match. What are we going to do mark their foreheads with a felt-tip marker? Expect the competitor to volunteer that they violated the rules a second (third, fourth) time?

I'm not a big fan of some of our new rules.

If it's a US rule, and it says "not applicable", it means that the IPSC rule that it modifies is not applicable in the US. As for official warnings, if you'll look closely, most or all of those rules are also noted at US rules, and the warning language isn't in them.

At IPSC (not USPSA/IPSC) matches, at least the few I've worked, each competitor has an equipment card which denotes their equipment location on their belt, and is also used to note any warnings the competitor might have received. That way, any range official should know that the competitor got a warning for "xxx", and if it happens again, they should award a penalty. In the US, we chose not to do that, but it's really not hard to keep up with.

Troy

[wgnoyes]

At IPSC (not USPSA/IPSC) matches, at least the few I've worked, each competitor has an equipment card which denotes their equipment location on their belt, and is also used to note any warnings the competitor might have received.  ...

(Slight Drift)

So.... what are the logistics/procedures behind the card? Each competitor has one. Is he asked for it at each stage along with his scoresheet or label, or is it just spot-checked? Who fills out the card initially for equipment location, and when? Not during registration, I wouldn't think; I've never seen anyone register at a major match wearing their stuff. How does that all work? Just curious, and thanks. Bn

[shred]

The first stage you go to, the RO asks for your card. They then mark your equipment and position on it and give it back. At subsequent stages, you show them your card and they verify your equipment hasn't changed.

[mactiger]

What Shred said. It's pretty simple, and usually goes without a hitch, at least in my limited experience. Shred, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the card is also used to record warnings, as well, right?

Troy

[shred]

My experience isn't great either, but I think that's the plan... I'm not sure what happens if a competitor "loses" his sheet however..

[MasterLefty]

The information is checked at every stage. For the remainer of this post, I am only referencing the IPSC rules and please note that they do not apply to USPSA.

I think that it would be very good practice to note the warnings on the sheet, currently the rules state that they must be written on the score sheet, 9.7.1.

While the equipment list is not a required document (within the rulebook), I believe that it would be difficult to apply penalties, such as outlined in 8.7.1 and etc, without the ROs knowing up front that you have already received a warning. I state this because of the last sentence in 9.7.4

The signed score sheet is deemed to be a definitive document and, with the exception of the mutual consent of the competitor and the signatory Range Officer, or due to an arbitration decision, the score sheet will only be changed to correct arithmetical errors or to add procedural penalties under Rule 8.6.2.

Penalties cannot be applied after the fact unless the are with the consent of the competitor or they have been called for interference or assistance. I guess that if someone refuses to have a procedural applied for 8.7.1, 8.7.1, 9.1.1 and maybe 10.2.6 then the RM may choose that they instead will receive a penalty under section 10.6 (Troy, would this out of line.)

Kenny

[Flexmoney]

I guess that if someone refuses to have a procedural applied for 8.7.1, 8.7.1, 9.1.1 and maybe 10.2.6 then the RM may choose that they instead will receive a penalty under section 10.6 (Troy, would this out of line.)

Kenny

Wow. I'd say it was out of line.

I don't think it would be right to DQ a competitor because the rule book was lacking.

I don't even think it would be right to threaten, or mention, 10.6

[Jim Norman]

All of the last couple posts point to the reason that sanity reaered its head in USPSA and the warning was removed.

Also, why should the same offense committed by two different competitors be treated differently?

I come to your stage with a warning and I do something that gets me a proceedural, while another shooter in my squad in my division, in my class competing for the same awrad or prize commitsexactly the same offense and only receives a warning.

Now lets assume that we came from a 160 point stage to your 50 point stage and the next stage we are going to is another 160 point stage.

My warning on the 160 gets me a proceedural on the 50, while his warning on the 50 gets him a proceedural on teh 160. Same exact infractions but the effect on our scores is greatly different and it affects the match outcome.

If a competitor earns a proceedural, give it to him right then and there. We need some small measure of fairness and logic int e rules if we expect to grow.

Remember, most of the people that play our game are not reading this or posting here. Most of them have a life outside of shooting IPSC/USPSA

Jim Norman

[Flexmoney]

Jim,

You bring up a good point. Where the penalty is applied can effect the match results. But, I don't know that it really matters. The fact that the shooter has been warned, the action then is upon them. If they screw up again, they eat the penalty (on the stage in which they happen to be shooting). I think that is more than fair.

MasterLefty, you bring up a good point about when a penalty can be applied. It pretty much would have to be during the cof, I think.

[Jim Norman]

Kyle,

I am just glad that we don't have to deal with this here.

Too easy to screw up. I can see an RO "not seeing" the warning and letting a shooter get a pass. No one speaks up until after the sheets are signed. Sort of like the guys that go stand in front of a NS so the Ro maybe misses it, then after the scoresheet is signed he calls out for white tape.

Its cheating, but hard to access. Is it the other people on the squad's job to catch the errors? Or is it the RO's joib to catch all the hits?

Like I said, I am just glad this is a non problem here, I hope it stays this way!

Jim Norman

[MasterLefty]

Is it the other people on the squad's job to catch the errors?

This is kind of like the old squib warnings. Are your fellow competitors going to holler out, "Bob, that's the third one today!" so that the RO will know? (maybe some will, but that's not the point.)

To my eariler post of a 10.6 unsportsmanlike, yes it is a little harsh but I was trying to strive for a point. The rules state when to apply the warning and procedural, but they do not address how to apply the penalty after the fact. The warnings are to be written on the score sheets, but how are downstream ROs to know that a warning has already been issued. If I do not consent to the application of the penalty, even though I know the rules, am I being unsportsmanlike by not following the rules? Again, I was just trying to get everyone thinking about an omission I see in the rules.

I think that Troy is playing it smart staying out of my question, but this is an item that should be submitted to the rules committe for future review. ( I had better start writing said letter.)

Kenny

[Jim Norman]

Well, first thing we have tgo do is to deide whether we are talking USPSA or IPSC. In USPA we do not issue a warning that travels. We either access the penalty or we don't. And realtive to all the other posts, I think that this is best. You either get the penalty where you earn it, or you don't get it.

Think about running a stop sign, should you get a warning? and only get a ticket if yo are caught again the second time on the same road?

Jim Norman

[MasterLefty]

The question was asked about the USPSA use of said rules. In this regard the question has been answered. The rules quoted in the original post do not apply to USPSA.

I drifted the thread to look at the IPSC side of the rules. To these means I will end my comments to 8.7???

Kenny

[Flexmoney]

Kenny,

You asked how an RO would know...

It would be on the equipment sheet, right?

Say you shoot my stage, and I give you a warning (warning being defined as written, correct?). That warning goes on your equipment sheet.

Now, you go a few stages, and you are shooting on Troy's stage. He sees that you make a a violation...he goes to write your warning on the sheet...sees that it is the second violation for the same infraction...thus, you are issed a procedural on that stage.

Sound right?

[mactiger]

I think that Troy is playing it smart staying out of my question, but this is an item that should be submitted to the rules committe for future review. ( I had better start writing said letter.)

Kenny

Sorry, Kenny, didn't mean to make you feel ignored.

In my limited IPSC/IROA experience, any warnings were recorded on the equipment sheet, not on the score cards. The current rule does state that warnings are issued on the score sheets. Checking equipment cards is one thing, but reviewing each competitor's copy of his previous score cards would take some time, I'd think. Unless two warnings for the same offense are caught in stats, and a penalty awarded there, I don't see how it would work. Again, my IROA experience is pretty limited.

As to not accepting the penalty, I'd also think that the competitor would have a pretty good case, under the rules, for protesting one awarded in that fashion.

Finally, I've never seen a procedural awarded in this way, so I'm not really any kind of authority on the subject. It does seem that the language could be tweaked, because if you are going to award travelling "warnings", you need to be able to easily and quickly determine whether a competitor has been previously warned or not. I'd say go ahead and draft that letter...

Troy

[richardschennberg]

Whenever there is a warning or penalty, write down the time and initial the score sheet. That way if someone is "warned" twice in the same match, the stats officer will know which stage gets the penalty.

Richard L-1720 CRO

http://www.schennberg.com

[JerryDGeek]

In an IPSC match, all WARNING rules apply.

However, the 15th edition of the USPSA rule book has removed (as "not applicable") all verbiage containing the word "warning".

There is only exception, which doesn't actually apply to the new WARNINGS in the IPSC rules:

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

As Troy and Jim have already stated, there are no 'travelling warnings' in USPSA competition. USPSA has decided that if a situation deserves a 'warning' in IPSC, it deserves immediate correction in USPSA. For example:

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de­cocked. Violation will incur a warning for the first occurrence but will be subject to Section 10.6 for subsequent occurrences in the same match.

US5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de­cocked. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediate­ly escorted by a Range Oficer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.