mhs Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 What rule supports delaying the start signal until they stop creeping? The rules say start in 1-4 seconds after "Standby", and if they are creeping give them a procedural. The 1-4 second interval is a "should", not a "must", so one could delay a bit, but I see no provision for starting over due to creeping after "Are you ready". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 To me, creeping is a false start. 8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 To me, creeping is a false start. 8.3.4.1 In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored. They're really not synonymous...... False start ......................... Beginning an attempt at a COF prior to the “Start signal”. versus: 10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the handgun, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal, will incur one procedural penalty. 10.2.6.1 Exception: any movement required or specified in the stage briefing (i.e., self start) will not be penalized. IIRC from the last RO seminar I attended, a false start is someone reacting to a timer from a nearby bay...... That you want to stop, give the competitor a chance to regain composure, and then re-start them..... Creeping -- if they auto correct before the buzzer is fine, if it's happening at the buzzer is a procedural, without any duty to stop them...... Creeping can happen so quickly that the RO may see it, but not react in time -- in which case a procedural penalty is applicable to restore competitive equity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Excellent point! So if can react to the shooter beginning to move, then it's a false start and you reset them, but if you can't react but do see it, then it's a procedural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 24, 2014 Author Share Posted August 24, 2014 He is correct. Our RO instructor last week spent a lot of time discussing the difference between a false start & creeping. That is why there are separate rubles to deal with each specific instance. The situation as described by my original post is different than both of these and that is why it is in the RO certification exam to ensure you understand the difference between these 3 different situations ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 24, 2014 Share Posted August 24, 2014 Excellent point! So if can react to the shooter beginning to move, then it's a false start and you reset them, but if you can't react but do see it, then it's a procedural. No. If the shooter starts even though your timer hasn't gone off -- is reacting to a buzzer in an adjacent bay, or just launches himself even though the buzzer hasn't gone off -- that's a false start...... If as the buzzer goes the competitor is moving out of the required start position -- hands towards gun, crouching, or shuffling feet, leaning -- but he's essentially at the start location when the buzzer sounds, you address that with a procedural for creeping..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Who was your instructor? I took the RO class earlier this month with Ray Hirst. He did a great job with the class and out at the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frag316 Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I had a guy who was creeping and resetting himself a lot. So I simply waited until he was still for about two seconds and gave him the beep. He started anticipating the beep and began moving after resetting, so I waited. And waited. And waited. He finally looked back at me and said, "You gonna give me the beep or not?" I said, "Sure. When you stop moving." He was a little irritated with me, but would have fought the penalty harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhs Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I had a guy who was creeping and resetting himself a lot. So I simply waited until he was still for about two seconds and gave him the beep. He started anticipating the beep and began moving after resetting, so I waited. And waited. And waited. He finally looked back at me and said, "You gonna give me the beep or not?" I said, "Sure. When you stop moving." He was a little irritated with me, but would have fought the penalty harder. In this situation, with multiple cycles of creeping and "resetting", the easiest way I've found to avoid needing to give a procedural is to start them as soon as they start resetting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 I guess this could be termed splitting hairs but if you give the start signal "as they start resetting" they are by definition creeping since creeping Is defined as some kind of movement (leaning, moving hands closer to gun, etc) when the start signal goes off ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 I guess this could be termed splitting hairs but if you give the start signal "as they start resetting" they are by definition creeping since creeping Is defined as some kind of movement (leaning, moving hands closer to gun, etc) when the start signal goes off ... Nope. If they are in the process of resetting (like recovering their balance) then they wouldn't be "physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture" as is stated in 10.2.6. They would be going the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Maybe ... What if the WSB said "standing anywhere in the box" and the shooter was shuffling their feet? Is it obvious they are "returning to" or perhaps they are "moving from" the start position ? Edited August 25, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 Maybe ... What if the WSB said "standing anywhere in the box" and the shooter was shuffling their feet? Is it obvious they are "returning to" or perhaps they are "moving from" the start position ? I guess I shouldn't start down this rabbit hole. I personally wont give someone AYR until they are holding still and wouldn't start the timer unless they remain still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 agreed. But the original situation is where someone, after the 'stand by' command was given, moves there strong hand toward their gun & starts to lean, but then returns to the correct start position before the start signal goes off ... So, what would you do in this situation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alma Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 just wait. If they are obnoxious (the act not personality) then consider the procedural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 fair enough ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayWord Posted August 25, 2014 Share Posted August 25, 2014 At coaching penalty was issued at L10/Open Nationals in MT. It was the first time John A. ever heard it being done. The CRO was Wooden. It is and was a chicken s***t penalty. It got the T-Shirt thanks to Polle. Please correctly insult the CRO that made that call. The last name is Worden. It was a valid call if you did the math. However, since most do not, you are entitled to your opinion. Jay Worden RMI This is my option and not that of NROI or the DNROI. Jay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted August 25, 2014 Author Share Posted August 25, 2014 (edited) Absolutely agree. If someone is moving their gun hand or leaning WHEN the start signal goes off that is a textbook example of creeping and should be called. As soon as ROs decide to only make the calls they agree with and not follow the rule book we can all just pack up and move to Washington and call ourselves .... Congressmen ... Edited August 25, 2014 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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