Problem with Universal Clays

[JFD]

I have a 4 lb jug of Universal Clays that I tried with my .45 loads. With ammo loaded anywhere from 4.8 grains to 6.0 grains with a 220 grain LRN @ 1.226 OAL, the range between min and max velocity was running around 100 FPS. Not good. Anyone else seen anything like this? I tried various powder measures and finally ended up hand weighing the stuff to eliminate any variables I could think of. That project is now dead.

Now I'm getting supplied to load .40 ammo for my soon to be purchased Para. I've seen Universal Clays as a recommended powder, though not mentioned as frequently as TiteGroup and VV N320. After my .45 experiment, I'm not feeling too good about U. Clays. Could I have just picked the wrong powder for the .45 , and is it worth trying this powder with .40 loads? I'll be using a 175 grain lead TC and a 180 JHP (will try Rainier first).

Would it be better to go ahead and just start out with TiteGroup or N320? Any advantages between the two besides price? I don't really care if the Universal Clays gathers dust or not, but if it's well suited for the .40 then I could give it a try eventually with practice loads or something.

If all else is equal, then I'd prefer to use whatever meters the best out of a Dillon powder measure.

[Merlin Orr]

Might try a PM to PhilTerry. He sent me some info on Universal Clays for .40 - Can't find it now...

[Tman33_99]

I used Univ Clays for 40 for a while til I found a good source of VV. I liked the way it preformed, and would use it again.

[JFD]

OK, it might be a good idea to keep the UC for .40 experimentation.

I've been playing with Clays (plain old clays) with the .45, but it looks like it is not a good choice for the .40.

I'm trying to pay attention when I see TiteGroup and VV N320 mentioned a lot in reference to 180 grain .40 loads. Of course all the VV powder I have is N340.

There's a lot of things I still need to check out concerning .40 loads, but it will be nice to know I can benefit from the experience of others here.

It would be kind of nice to use the same powder for .45 and .40, but since I have at least 20 gallons (I just store in gallon containers these days) of loaded .45 ammo, I doubt I'll be loading too much .45 after I get the Para Limited gun.

[Tman33_99]

I have used N340 also. around 4.5 grains under a 200gr Precision.

[Turtle]

JFD,

I had the same problem with UC for Major .40 loads loaded out to 1.200" COL.

I switched to Titegroup which seemed a little more consistent but a little dirtier. I think the question is not the extreme spread of the load, but "...is the accuracy exceptable?"

Regards,

Todd

[JFD]

The accuracy was acceptable, but not as good as my other loads. I also never tested it past 10 yards or so.

I figured that with 100 FPS range, there wasn't much hope of making minimum PF with the minimum velocity without running a 185 average PF. By the time I could reliabily make PF, the recoil was unacceptable compared to my normal loads with W231 or VV N340 (or anything else I've ever tried).

Generally I want to find out what my minimum PF load is going to be before I start looking for accuracy. Usually anything I put through this Kimber is very accurate, with the only exception being 230 hydra-shok factory loads.

My standard .45 load with W231 and 220 grain LRN bullets isn't what you could call a "clean" load, so I'm not sure if I'd even notice if TiteGroup is dirty in a .40.

Hell, I've got to cure the lubrisizer/tennis elbow I've been getting when sizing/lubing cast bullets or else I might be shooting nothing but plated or jacketed bullets. From a cost standpoint that would suck

[EricW]

All take all the U Clays you guys don't want anymore.

[speedshooter]

I switched to U clays for my .40 because it gave me the most consistant velocity. One issue with the large capacity of the .45 case and powders that don't take up a lot of volume is the position in the case. If you want an interesting experiment tilt your muzzle to the ground (so the powder in the chambered round is forward in the case) then raise it level and fire it over the chrono. Repeat 5 times and record velocities, then do the opposite, tilt muzzle up to push the powder back then fire 5 rounds over the chrono (tilting the gun each time) and compare the numbers. Years ago when I had some time on my hands I tested several powders in a .45 this way and got velocity variations as high as 15%.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Last month I gave away 6lbs of Uclays because it wasn't satisfactory for any of the calibers I load for (.38sup,.40,.45). Too much velocity spread and lots of recoil and muzzle flip relative to the other powders I've used. I use Winchester WST for both .40 and .45 with excellent results.

[Carlos]

I did some research on all past posts here that mention "Universal". Here is what I found:

-Turtle used it w/ satisfactory results in .40 until he began to "load long" - i.e. 1.200" & longer in .40 & then it was inconsistent as to SD & accuracy.

-JFD had problems with it in .45. as to SD

-Others used it w/o a problem for .40 Major.

What seems to be happening here? The stuff seems position sensitive as well as sensitive to partially filled cases. It seems that if you put a major charge (as listed in the manual) in a .40 & load it to the "short" recomended OAL (1.13 or so) then it may work. For a 1911 based gun, the length of 1.13 may not work as well as loading long - to 1.200 or more. Looks like an OK powder for non-1911 guns that must run the shorter OAL.

[Harmon]

U clays is working great for me with KKM glock 40 caliber..

4.5 grains , 200 grain bullet 171 pf.

while not all that soft, (glock, nothing is "soft") the sights snap back where i need them.

While not dirty like bullseye, it does leave kinda a brownish colored soot on the muzzle and dustcover.

I plan on trying WST soon.

it doesnt look to be major power 200 grain 40 friendly though

[heebs]

Carlos is right with his reference to position sensitivity and partially filled cases. Here is the long awaited, and probably beat to death results I just did with my STI edge .40. I realize I have some different powders listed, but I went to my shelf and just started grabbing what I had.

180 gr. FMJ, 1.160 oal WSP temp was 20F

6.0 Unique 1059fps avg 52 fps spread

5.1 Universal 919 fps avg 77 fps spread

4.6 Titegroup 930 fps avg 43 fps spread

5.0 WST 985 fps avg 38 fps spread

6.2 VV N350 870 fps avg 135 fps spread

6.1 VV 3N37 845 fps avg 102 fps spread

5.7 WSF 972 fps avg 39 fps spread

180 West Coast plated 1.160 OAL WSP temp was 20F

5.7 WSF 984 fps avg 53 fps spread

4.6 Titegroup 967 fps avg 31 fps spread

5.1 Universal 970 fps avg 69 fps spread

What does this tell me? I will probably use WST, WSF, or Titegroup. Those 3 will get tested at 50 yds to tell me which has the "best" group if there is any significant difference in the 3. And I will also test WST with a plated bullet. That one had the least amount of smoke that I could tell.

My 2 cents on the subject.

Heebs

[Guest Larry Cazes]

And I will also test WST with a plated bullet. That one had the least amount of smoke that I could tell.

Yup, WST burns extremely clean in major PF loads. Thanks for pulling together the data.

[joelaw99]

as for the positional variances of small volume loads, the old timers used to drop thier powder, then some cream of wheat to fill the case(not enough for a compressed load, but so the powder doesnt move all over the place.....just a thought................................ the idea was that the positional thing was a non-issue then. the cream of wheat held the powder charge against the primer

[Jasonub]

any data on n320?

[carinab]

Been using UC for a lot of years in .40 (both Glock and STI) and my spread is never more than 20-30 fps usually less. I load a little shorter at 1.180 oal with a precision 200gr molylube and 4.1 grains of UC. The accuracy is very good and it feels softer to me than titegroup or VV

BTW, the winchester powders can be temperature sensitive and will lose velocity. Went minor at a match once with WSF where the temp was about 45 degrees colder than my home town.

[eric nielsen]

All the Clays powders have some issues with partially-filled cases and location of the powder in the case.

TiteGroup doesn't. Neither does N320. If money was no factor I'd probably shoot N320, because it smells better & burns a little cleaner. But I use TiteGroup.

[JFD]

I've been pricing powder and think Titegroup will be the one for me.

[Bronco]

I use UC for all my pistol ( 9mm, 38 super, 40 S&W, 10mm, 45acp, 44mag. ) and some shotgun loads. Have went through at least 25lbs. and still love the stuff. My 40 load is 5.2 gr. with 180gr. West coast at 1.195 oal. Spread is around 25 to 30 fps. 38 Super loads are not major but don't need to be for my use. LOL Keith

[Harmon]

4.7 grains U clays and 200 grain molycoated bullet give 187 pf out of my glock...

it only takes 4.1 to make major @ 1.150

4.5 grains with a jacketed bullet.

i didnt like the way WST acted loaded short in Glock...possibly too fast for 200 grainers.

[TonyT]

I have a 4 lb jug of Universal Clays that I tried with my .45 loads.  With ammo loaded anywhere from 4.8 grains to 6.0 grains with a 220 grain LRN @ 1.226 OAL, the range between min and max velocity was running around 100 FPS.  Not good.  Anyone else seen anything like this?  I tried various powder measures and finally ended up hand weighing the stuff to eliminate any variables I could think of.  That project is now dead.

Now I'm getting supplied to load .40 ammo for my soon to be purchased Para.  I've seen Universal Clays as a recommended powder, though not mentioned as frequently as TiteGroup and VV N320.  After my .45 experiment, I'm not feeling too good about U. Clays.  Could I have just picked the wrong powder for the .45 , and is it worth trying this powder with .40 loads?  I'll be using a 175 grain lead TC and a 180 JHP (will try Rainier first).

Would it be better to go ahead and just start out with TiteGroup or N320?  Any advantages between the two besides price?  I don't really care if the Universal Clays gathers dust or not, but if it's well suited for the .40 then I could give it a try eventually with practice loads or something.

If all else is equal, then I'd prefer to use whatever meters the best out of a Dillon powder measure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Universal Cl;ays is an excellent powder with the jacketed 180gr. bullets. I have not used it with rainiers and use WST for lead bullets.

Tony

[JFD]

I've managed to find a use for it loading practice ammo with cast bullets.

It's definitely a better powder for .40 than it is for the .45.

[Rico567]

What JFD and a few others have said....I found Universal unsatisfactory in .45 ACP, but I've been so happy with Clays in that chambering it was only an experiment anyway. I got my first Titegroup and will load some of that shortly.

Universal is my standard powder now in .40 (with the proviso that I shoot 165 gr. Rainier FPs almost exclusively, and much of the experience in this thread is with the heavier 180 and 200 gr bullets), just marginally better than WSF, also an excellent .40 powder. I have also settled on Universal as a direct substitute for the classic 8 gr. Unique in .45 Colt.