Grip explanation

[635 PCSO]

I am transistioning from an STI Edge 40 caliber PFload 180 gr load to a 625 S&W N Frame 45 acp 230 gr PF load. I thought I was past gip but I find myself searching for a comfortable grip. I shoot Iso I have not shot weaver in years. Some say the c clamp inward pressure towards the pistol grip is best, others say a dash of push pull is in order.

With the STI the ?C-clamp pressure was fine, with the 45 I fell like I am waiting on the front sight to drop. Would the push pull help pull the front sight down for me?

I will have time to experiment with the timerand both grip pressures this weekend. I am hoping some advise on this board can explain the mechanics of both grip styles.

Thanks in advance.

[Pierruiggi]

I am eagerly awaiting on what experienced shooters answer to this.

You see, I'm having the same problem too when shooting relatively high PF ammo (.45ACP 230 grain at 850fps 195PF Wolf ammo) , after the shot fires and I call it, the sight doesn't go back down, it stays (aligned in the rear sight notch) a little bit on top of where it was before the shot fired.

About the whole push pull thing, I don't like it, but I find very hard to push with both arms outwards ALA Matt Burkett.

So I'd like to know how you experienced shooters return the sights to target.

Is it a pasive happening or you actively return them? You attempt to return them to target after you call the shot and see the sights lift or you are applying force before breaking the shot? Do you change your method depending on the type of target, distance, your body position, what kind of gun and ammo you are shooting, etc.?

[Pierruiggi]

How disappointing... I thought there would be more interest in this thread...

Perhaps its the Holiday Season...

[JD45]

I wish I could give you an answer, but my technique is a mess.

[Duane Thomas]

How disappointing... I thought there would be more interest in this thread...

Me, too. I guess that means I need to get off my ass and do it myself, huh?

With the STI the ?C-clamp pressure was fine, with the 45 I fell like I am waiting on the front sight to drop. Would the push pull help pull the front sight down for me?

No. All push/pull does is generate forces onto the gun that cause it to do a hula dance in recoil. As for grip, I like to hold the gun in my master hand fairly lightly. When I demonstrate to students, they're always shocked at how lightly I grip the gun. Think of how hard you'd hold a hammer if you were driving a nail.

For the support hand, I mate the heels of the hands. This is very important, if there's a gap there the gun will try to "fill in the gap" when it recoils and it'll twist in your grip.

The support hand wrist is rolled forward to get the support hand higher up on the gun and more in line with the bore. This de facto gives the gun a lower bore axis and less leverage to flip its muzzle on you, and springloads the wrist in the down position. This GREATLY decreases muzzle flip.

Flag the master hand thumb high and point it at the target.

Make a C-clamp with your support hand and squeeze with light side-to-side pressure. Some people recommend various percentages of master hand/support hand pressure: 30 master/70 support, 40 master/60 support, you get the idea. Personally I just apply the same amount of pressure with the support hand as I use with the master hand.

You can either point the support hand thumb at the target in "Zen archer" fashion or curl it down. After years of being a Zen archer, I recently switched to curling it down. To see what I mean, check out the photo captioned "You just can't have too much materializin'" at this link:

http://www.brianenos.com/pages/phbc.misc.html

Get away from the concept of fighting the gun, forcing its muzzle down after recoil. Again, this will lead to muscling the gun and causing it to do weird things in recoil. Let your technique control muzzle flilp with no effort from you. What you want is to start with the gun aimed-in, and when it recoils you want it to track consistently, ideally straight up and straight down, right back to the same spot. Those who truly have their vision on-line will sometimes note the gun's not really tracking straight up, but instead up and slightly to the right or left, and back along the same path. The truth it doesn't really matter if the sight track isn't perfectly straight up and down. It also doesn't really matter how high the muzzle flips in recoil. All that matters is that the gun tracks consistently and comes back to the same spot, every time. With good technique the muzzle will be back down before you could pull the trigger again, anyway.

Hope that helped. Any other questions, feel free.

[Pierruiggi]

I think this is related to what Duane says about letting the gun do the work instead of forcing it. From Rob Leatham's website. Bottom half of the page.

First, the sight picture is attained, signifying alignment has been attained.  Next, the trigger finger adds pressure to the trigger.  The trigger is moved far enough to cause the firing mechanism of the gun to function and the gun discharges, all while you attempt to maintain alignment.  As the bullet leaves the barrel, muzzle lift becomes noticeable.  As the muzzle lifts higher, the gun is pulled down from flip back into alignment for the possible next shot.  This order of events can not be altered drastically without something going astray.  At close distances shooting slow, on easy targets, a timing mistake, where the string of events gets out of order, which moves the gun slightly out of alignment, may go unnoticed.  If the difficulty of the shot is great, even a slight movement may cause the shot to be bad.  This is where the work begins.

First, move the trigger without moving anything else.  This is easier said than done.  Next, see the sight lift in recoil.  This insures you saw it through the ignition phase.  Third, avoid trying to cause the gun to return to alignment.  You will tend to overcorrect and cause the gun to travel back through alignment making the gun point low.  Instead, try to hold the gun on target  through the firing sequence.

Expect to see some muzzle flip. Those that claim they can keep the gun from flipping are terribly close to pulling.  I know from my own shooting experience, that I pull hard on the gun to return it from recoil, as I do not try stop that flip.  Speed comes from returning the gun to alignment fast, not from stopping flip altogether.

Also, Duane, you said

You can either point the support hand thumb at the target in "Zen archer" fashion or curl it down. After years of being a Zen archer, I recently switched to curling it down.

Why did you switch?

[Paradox]

Everything Duane said...

Ironically, I spent some time with my 686 on the plate rack over the holidays. It's been almost a year since I have fired a wheel gun, and immediately noticed a different recoil impluse compared to a semi-auto. (I am also left dumbfounded as to how people like Jerry Miculek can reload one so quickly...but that's another story)

My take is that the foward movement of the slide after the shot helps you return the front sight to its initial position. In my experience, it doesn't really matter how high the front sight flips as long as you can get a consistant return. I can run 6 plates at the same speed whether I am shooting mouse-fart .38specials or full power .357mag hunting loads. The double action trigger on a revolver is much less forgiving than a 2lb single action, so I practiced dry firing a few runs through the plates.

Definately stick to some sort of neutral grip over a 'push-pull' grip. The suggestion for rolling the support hand forward will help with controlling the recoil.

'Tension' is a totally subjective term, and I probably use more grip pressure than most. Generally, I grip as firmly as possible without losing fine trigger control. The most important factor for me is that the relationship in pressure between my strong and weak hand is consistant for that particular pistol/load. As Duane stated, you will know you have the correct percentages when the front sight tracks vertically.

My advice is to take lots of ammo to the range, try some timing drills to get the front sight tracking and find what works for you

Good Luck!

[Duane Thomas]

Why did you switch?

I'm going to hold off answering that question simply because I'm going through a period of intense experimentation in my shooting, and I had an experience last night that may well cause major changes in the way I grip with my support hand. More experimentation is needed.

[Pierruiggi]

Would asking you to please please please please tell us change your mind?