The importance of the prize table

[mulrick]

Unless the numerous tax professionals I've spoken with are wrong this is incorrect. A company can not claim a "value" so the cost of the assembly is what is written off, not its retail value.

You are correct, what is allowed by law is the cost of goods... if it costs Magpul $2 to make a mag, then that is what they write off... Where the value comes is to the person on the receiving end. Think about it, if a company could write off full retail value, it would discourage sales.

[co-exprs]

I think that the prize table does matter to most. I like to say that I am not a prize table hound, but when I finish less than 1% behind the winner and win a prize worth 25% the value of what I could have won... I notice. The result is that I first kick myself for that one mistake I made which cost me not only the match but the bigger prize. One pistol FTF cost me the title at SMM3G... it was that close. While I was ecstatic to finish so well in such a talent rich environment... don't think I didn't look on enviously as Kelly Neal walked away with the POF rifle. The second (and positive) result is that I will train twice as hard to win that match next year. I don't know that I will ever outclass Kelly Neal (I have to give credit... Kelly is phenom, I mean lung popping respect!), but I am certainly motivated to work even harder to earn that win. I would be lying if the prize didn't account for some portion of that motivation. Even on the Pro level, where competitors must be there for the love of the game (right?)... is there anyone who believes that we would be seeing the same level of accelerated skill sets, if there were not national titles, major sponsorships, money and prizes at stake? I don't think so. Just a couple of years ago, I was nipping at James Casanova's heels. Now I'm lucky to cough on his dust. I watched Tony Holmes shoot a year ago and was appropriately impressed with his outstanding skills. I saw him at Superstition this year and he blew my mind with how much faster he had become... seemingly overnight. Prizes, money, sponsors and national titles are motivating a level of performance never before seen.

We billed Pikes Peak as a trophy match because I honestly thought no one would want to sponsor a first year mid sized shotgun match. Turns out I was wrong. We had generous sponsors and a prize table after all. It wasn't a huge prize table by 3gun standards, but appropriately sized for the event. Proly half the shooters there had never walked a prize table before and it was certainly a really big deal for them. Having a prize table added an element of fun and excitement to our match that could not have been duplicated otherwise. As previously stated though, a match can't be defined by its prize table. If the table is the only draw for a match, then there really isn't any point in being there. HeMan Nats has a smaller table than RM3G, but I enjoy attending HMN more. I like really big field courses which test my endurance and HMN seems to be designed expressly for me (and apparently Mr Watson, who keeps me humble). I would shoot that match if there were no prize table, just for the love of the event.

Right or wrong... prize tables matter. Thank you sponsors, for filling them up!

[JoeBoboutfitters]

As a vendor and a shooter, I wouldnt change a thing.

Most big matches offer a good value for retailers and manufacturers.

A sponsor only donating cash would be a poor move, IMO. It would defeat the purpose of a sponsorship table. Its a 3gun match. Allstate may want to donate cash because they cant donate goods...but a retailer or manufacturer should donate goods to promote their product lines.

[exmr2sw]

To me, a prize table is a perk but not a deal breaker if I would travel to a match.

[Jaycwebb]

I do not agree with random draw prize tables. If you want a prize work to get yourself one. The people who finish ahead of you did for a reason. They sacrificed time and money to get where they are. Who cares what they do with the prize they won. As gose stated, the whole everybody wins crap is un-American and is the reason our country is in its current state.

While I agree philosophically, this is a terrible way to grow this and any other sport/game.

If you want to grow you need to attract new players. You don't attract new players by clearly illutrating to them that they're money is 100% going into the hands of those above them; they need to walk with something and have a positive experience that encourges them to stick with it and to get their friends into it

[JoeBoboutfitters]

I do not agree with random draw prize tables. If you want a prize work to get yourself one. The people who finish ahead of you did for a reason. They sacrificed time and money to get where they are. Who cares what they do with the prize they won. As gose stated, the whole everybody wins crap is un-American and is the reason our country is in its current state.

While I agree philosophically, this is a terrible way to grow this and any other sport/game.

If you want to grow you need to attract new players. You don't attract new players by clearly illutrating to them that they're money is 100% going into the hands of those above them; they need to walk with something and have a positive experience that encourges them to stick with it and to get their friends into it

Maybe everyone should get blue ribbons for participating?

I plink at the range for fun. I compete for bragging rights/prizes/fun. Its a competition. There's money involved. Its expensive. If I shoot 3x faster than someone else my stuffed animal prize should be bigger, right? Otherwise, whats the point of them striving to get better?

Id assume the vast maiority of the type A personalities that travel to big shoots and spend $500-1500 in a weekend on entry fees and associated shooting costs dont want random prizes.

Its fine at the zombie match which is geared towards beginners but...not at big matches.

Edited June 26, 2014 by JoeBoboutfitters

[Jaycwebb]

I do not agree with random draw prize tables. If you want a prize work to get yourself one. The people who finish ahead of you did for a reason. They sacrificed time and money to get where they are. Who cares what they do with the prize they won. As gose stated, the whole everybody wins crap is un-American and is the reason our country is in its current state.

While I agree philosophically, this is a terrible way to grow this and any other sport/game.

If you want to grow you need to attract new players. You don't attract new players by clearly illutrating to them that they're money is 100% going into the hands of those above them; they need to walk with something and have a positive experience that encourges them to stick with it and to get their friends into it

Maybe everyone should get blue ribbons for participating?

I plink at the range for fun. I compete for bragging rights/prizes/fun. Its a competition. There's money involved. Its expensive. If I shoot 3x faster than someone else my stuffed animal prize should be bigger, right? Otherwise, whats the point of them striving to get better?

Id assume the vast maiority of the type A personalities that travel to big shoots and spend $500-1500 in a weekend on entry fees and associated shooting costs dont want random prizes.

Its fine at the zombie match which is geared towards beginners but...not at big matches.

I think you're missing my point. If you want to grow the game, you need to make new shooters feel like they got something.

[JoeBoboutfitters]

I think you're missing my point. If you want to grow the game, you need to make new shooters feel like they got something.

I think you're missing my point.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/competition

Definition: The act or process of trying to get or win something (such as a prize or a higher level of success) that someone else is also trying to get or win : the act or process of competing

Door prizes are great for everyone, but "real" prizes should typically go to the real winners. I rarely win anything really good at a prize table, but that's how it should always be. If someone else beats me fair and square then he deserves a better placque, prize, or purple ribbon (whatever the case may be).

Why do new shooters NEED to feel they got something they didn't necessarily earn? Is it fun to win something? Sure. Is it an entitlement? No. New shooters shoot for the experience and to gain something from the experience. Shooting as a hobby is very rarely a profitable venture. I shoot for fun and bragging rights. If I win stuff, that's cool too. I sponsor shoots for advertising and hope that "better" shooters end up with the product if they're using it publicly. It's a better show of the product.

Does Benelli get better advertising if a new shooter shoots their firearm and shoots a stage in 60 seconds or if a Pro shoots that stage in 15 seconds? Should all sponsorships from big firearm manufacturers go to all new shooters who never place high in the rankings so they can feel like they got something?

Why don't new shooters get something every time they shoot at a small local match? Why don't I get something for doing well at a local match? They and I still shoot the local matches even without prizes?

Look at the ATA's trap numbers recently. They give out a TON of prizes. I shot at The Grand a couple years ago at Sparta, IL and IIRC the numbers had shrunk to dismal levels compared to previous years. You can't make a blanket statement that says prizes automatically will grow a sport. Once the new shooter gets "decent" he'll get bored quicker if his efforts don't actually mean jack.

Edited June 26, 2014 by JoeBoboutfitters

[mulrick]

I do not agree with random draw prize tables. If you want a prize work to get yourself one. The people who finish ahead of you did for a reason. They sacrificed time and money to get where they are. Who cares what they do with the prize they won. As gose stated, the whole everybody wins crap is un-American and is the reason our country is in its current state.

While I agree philosophically, this is a terrible way to grow this and any other sport/game.

If you want to grow you need to attract new players. You don't attract new players by clearly illutrating to them that they're money is 100% going into the hands of those above them; they need to walk with something and have a positive experience that encourges them to stick with it and to get their friends into it

Maybe everyone should get blue ribbons for participating?

I plink at the range for fun. I compete for bragging rights/prizes/fun. Its a competition. There's money involved. Its expensive. If I shoot 3x faster than someone else my stuffed animal prize should be bigger, right? Otherwise, whats the point of them striving to get better?

Id assume the vast maiority of the type A personalities that travel to big shoots and spend $500-1500 in a weekend on entry fees and associated shooting costs dont want random prizes.

Its fine at the zombie match which is geared towards beginners but...not at big matches.

I think you're missing my point. If you want to grow the game, you need to make new shooters feel like they got something.

Maybe, but how many new shooters are traveling to major matches? I think the cost alone would keep most new competitors away...

Random draws work for local matches where there are new shooters... But i think they have no place at a major... I don't mind seeing a 50% winner, top lady, top junior, etc. however.

[hrdstmax]

I think prize tables make the game more interesting, I would like to see the top winners get the bigger prizes but it would be nice to have a few prizes up for grabs for those that are unable to dedicate every waking moment to this great sport (even though I wish I could). I don't go to matches to win prizes but the prospect of being able to win a prize makes it much more interesting.

[MarkCO]

I do not agree with random draw prize tables. If you want a prize work to get yourself one. The people who finish ahead of you did for a reason. They sacrificed time and money to get where they are. Who cares what they do with the prize they won. As gose stated, the whole everybody wins crap is un-American and is the reason our country is in its current state.

While I agree philosophically, this is a terrible way to grow this and any other sport/game.

If you want to grow you need to attract new players. You don't attract new players by clearly illutrating to them that they're money is 100% going into the hands of those above them; they need to walk with something and have a positive experience that encourges them to stick with it and to get their friends into it

Maybe everyone should get blue ribbons for participating?

I plink at the range for fun. I compete for bragging rights/prizes/fun. Its a competition. There's money involved. Its expensive. If I shoot 3x faster than someone else my stuffed animal prize should be bigger, right? Otherwise, whats the point of them striving to get better?

Id assume the vast maiority of the type A personalities that travel to big shoots and spend $500-1500 in a weekend on entry fees and associated shooting costs dont want random prizes.

Its fine at the zombie match which is geared towards beginners but...not at big matches.

I think you're missing my point. If you want to grow the game, you need to make new shooters feel like they got something.

I never got anything for playing baseball except a trophy, still love it. I did not ever win any cash, prizes, contingency or a kiss from the trophy girl until I actually won races. When I got married my wife made me get rid of the pictures of Miss Mopar, so I don't have anything left but a memory. What "new" shooters get is the chance to compete on an even footing with the best. If they are good, they can win prizes. If they are not, they have some goal setting to do.

Growing the game is multi-faceted, and needs to be done, sure. That is why, for the huge sum of $0, I agreed to run the NSSF Rimfire Challenge Worlds. That is a game to bring in new shooters...opposite end of the spectrum...very different approach. That is also why Carbon Arms made such a large commitment to the Lady 3Gun match. We do put our money where our mouth is...we do a ton to support new shooters. But, random prizes at majors...I can not support that notion. If a sponsor, or shooter, wants to give away a prize to the last, 50%, High junior, whatever, awesome, and that happens a lot more than people think.

[mulrick]

In my family we were raised to "pay it forward.'

I squaded randomly with a kid (13yrs old) at my last local pistol match. We have pretty good prize tables for local matches as there are actually some awesome companies that help sponsor the range since they use it for R&D.

Anyway, it was his first match, his parents are not competitors (best cheering crew ever, haha) so I kinda helped him out, showing him the ropes. Kid has great natural talent but obviously didn't rank great. I ended up walking away with a Trijicon RMR, and as much as I kinda wanted it, I gave it to the kid. You should have seen his eyes light up, made my day to make his. He is already emailing me about the match next month.

Edited June 26, 2014 by mulrick

[MarkCO]

There you go!

[Benelli Chick]

Pay it forward is different than random draw, and I don't see it as entitlement.

You felt that kid worked hard, seemed interested, wanted to get better...he got something great that will make him want to keep doing all those things and you got a warm, fuzzy feeling with his smile!

That's WAAYYY better than a random draw. That was something for him, because of what he did when he was shooting with you. If he had been an entitled...$%^&*, then you would have kept your prize. But he was a good kid, and you paid it forward, and it seems like everybody won!!! I bet you're still his hero...even when he starts kicking your A$$!!

Denise

[mulrick]

Pay it forward is different than random draw, and I don't see it as entitlement.

You felt that kid worked hard, seemed interested, wanted to get better...he got something great that will make him want to keep doing all those things and you got a warm, fuzzy feeling with his smile!

That's WAAYYY better than a random draw. That was something for him, because of what he did when he was shooting with you. If he had been an entitled...$%^&*, then you would have kept your prize. But he was a good kid, and you paid it forward, and it seems like everybody won!!! I bet you're still his hero...even when he starts kicking your A$$!!

Denise

How right you are Denise! Mainly on that fact that he will soon be mopping me off the floor

Edited June 27, 2014 by mulrick

[slowsure]

Pay it forward is different than random draw, and I don't see it as entitlement.

You felt that kid worked hard, seemed interested, wanted to get better...he got something great that will make him want to keep doing all those things and you got a warm, fuzzy feeling with his smile!

That's WAAYYY better than a random draw. That was something for him, because of what he did when he was shooting with you. If he had been an entitled...$%^&*, then you would have kept your prize. But he was a good kid, and you paid it forward, and it seems like everybody won!!! I bet you're still his hero...even when he starts kicking your A$$!!

Denise

How right you are Denise! Mainly on that fact that he will soon be mopping me off the floor

This touches on the under current of all shooting sports, in my opinion. The next generation. We are going to need them. The majority of them.

Good on ya!