ZackJones Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 I have decided that shooting smaller/further plates than regulation is good for stages like Pendulum but maybe not so good for stages like Smoke & Hope. Relative to people that shoot similar overall scores I make up time on Pendulum and lose time on Smoke & Hope. This past match I was only .08 slower on Roundabout than I was on Smoke and Hope. What are your times for S&H and Roundabout? I shot Roundabout today and I'd like to compare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Today was our monthly practice for juniors at our club and we had 6 juniors come out which is our best turnout so far. By the end of the 3 hours of practice we had two new shooters who didn't want to step out of the shooters box . We set up Roundabout and had them shoot it various ways to see which way felt better to them and one thing I learned is no two shooters are alike. What works for one shooter is completely wrong for another. But enough about them let's talk about my shooting . Earlier this week I traded my Glock 35 for a Glock 34. This way I can shoot 9mm in Production and Limited with my Para and no longer need to load 9 and 40. I'll still load .40 for my son though so I'll have supplies around if I ever need to load some for myself. The 34 bit me pretty good but I grip it as high as possible so that's going to happen. I 'spose I could fix the problem with a Gen 4 but I don't see that happening anytime soon. This gun also has the extended mag release (my 35 didn't) and it was digging into my left hand big time. Tonight I ordered a standard magazine release from EBay and will install it next when when it arrives. So anyone reading this is clear on the order of plates we'll use the "Nimitz Numbering System" to number them. Back left is plate #1, Front left is pate #2, Back right is #4, Front Right is #5, and Stop plate is S. I started out shooting it without regard for time and just wanted to see what felt better for me. I also shoot it from far left, center, and far right in the shooting box. Once I found a setup I liked I started shooting for time. Through trial and error I ended up shooting a best single string time of 3.55 which is 1/2 a second faster than any single match string time. For that run I was positioned in the far right of the box and shot the plates in 2, 1, 5, 4, S order. I found drawing and shooting the close plate was a good confidence boaster. For my 3.55 run my times broke down as follows: 1 - 1.56 (slow but it's my first day with this gun) 2 - 2.05 (.49) 3 - 2.63 (.58) 4 - 3.12 (.49) 5 - 3.55 (.43) One reason why I like this order the the left side and right sides are basically the same shots. Close, Far, Close, Far, Stop. Of course it's very risky if you shoot a mike on that far plate as you'll likely hit the stop plate before you realize it. I did try 5, 4, 1, 2, S and that felt odd but the 1, 2, S sequence did feel very fast. After practicing and pretty much settling on 2, 1, 5, 4, S a fellow steel challenge shooter stopped by and we discussed shooting order. He said his preferred order is 1, 2, 4, 5, S. I tried that while practicing with the rimfire pistol and it did feel pretty good though I think I'm a little slower using that shooting order. I'll be shooting a match next weekend and hopefully Roundabout will be one of the stages we shoot. Of course tonight before posting this I did find this video on YouTube and you can see how BJ Norris runs it. Damn he's fast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I have decided that shooting smaller/further plates than regulation is good for stages like Pendulum but maybe not so good for stages like Smoke & Hope. Relative to people that shoot similar overall scores I make up time on Pendulum and lose time on Smoke & Hope. This past match I was only .08 slower on Roundabout than I was on Smoke and Hope. What are your times for S&H and Roundabout? I shot Roundabout today and I'd like to compare. Last match, S&H 17.42 Roundabout 17.50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 some things to consider .... as you get better at calling your shot will get to the point where there is no hesitation between plates since you no longer need any visual or audible conformation of the hit. The danger then becomes eating a penalty as you move off plate #4 if you make a mistake and call a close shot good when it is not. using "my" shooting order you can easily pick up plate #4 on the way back if you miss it and only eat .3 secs vice 3 secs. That difference is easily the difference between wining and losing a match. Two months ago I was cruising to an easy win when I ate a penalty on pendulum because I was still using the old shooting order. Instead of winning by over 2 secs I came in 2nd, .43 secs behind the winner. It's just not worth it for what its probably less than a .1 sec advantage ... Now, I think there are 2 schools of thought WRT training: 1) just use the order most Big Boys do because it is the fastest and least movement and just train until you can do it or 2) use an order that works for you at your current skill level but be aware that it is not optimum and will need to change as you get better ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 What you say make sense especially having the ability to come back for a make up on 4 which is a problematic plate on this stage. At one point I went through a 15 round magazine of just transitioning from 5 to 4 to try and drill that movement into memory because I was having trouble with that on the clock. Listening to BJ shoot it the 5, 4, 1, 2, S sounds faster, especially the last 3 shots. Looking at this stage I can see several different ways to try shooting it. I think I'm going to go re-read the shooting order thread in the steel challenge section to see what the general consensus is for shooting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) i agree that there is no one right answer, except for maybe 5To Go ... BJ's order certainly has less risk since you're probably less likelly to miss an 8 yd plate than a 15 yd plate but people miss plates on Smoke & Hope all the time too ... i think the real key is to go which ever way you are more conistent under match pressure. most people don't truely understand how important going 5 for 5 is compared to shooting the stage a little faster having never gone 150/150 in a 6 stage match, i'll alway give up .1 secs here and there if it means never missing since even one miss is easilt\y .3 secs ... Edited January 11, 2015 by Nimitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddKS Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) 5, 4, 1, 2, S is also the order that Max shots as well. That order would seem to be the best of all options except for the fact that it is directionally backwards from how most of us shoot the other stages. By that I mean you are starting right and going left instead of the opposite which is how most of us shoot the other stages. I think this is why people are not comfortable with this order. Doug Koenig discussed in one of his videos how he did not feel comfortable with that order. Roundabout is a problem for me. I am going to revisit the shooting order once the weather warms back up. Edited January 11, 2015 by ToddKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 I watched several shooters, including Max, shoot it at the nationals and did pick up on the shooting order Max uses. Instead of waiting on the weather check these out - work it out in dry fire: http://www.steelshootbanners.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 By that I mean you are starting right and going left instead of the opposite which is how most of us shoot the other stages. When you start on the far left that often leaves you moving right to left to get to the stop plate though. The order BJ shoots makes sense to me. Ponder on this; Showdown is completely symmetrical, left and right, how is your shooting order different from the left or right box? Showdown, from the right box is the only stage I'm not comfortable with the way I shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) I came across this video today. Good POV of every shot Caleb Giddings fired at the 2012 championship. A very respectable score of 130 but slow enough that you can follow it and easily see his order of engagements. The great shooters go too fast for me to tell what they are doing. Edit; for some reason I can't post a link. I'm sure it would be easily found on youtube if anybody wants to watch. Edited January 12, 2015 by Pasley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Haven't watched it yet but here's the video Pasley was talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Shot steel challenge at MidCarolina Rifle Club outside of Columbia SC yesterday. It was my first match shooting the new to me Glock 34. For the TLDR crowd - Worst Match Ever! I understand we have off days and I sure as hell had one yesterday. I shot my Ruger 22/45 with irons as well as the new to me Glock 34. Earlier this week I put some Volquartsen hammer, sear, trigger, and bolt kit in my pistol and it ran like a champ. I did have an occasional issue but nothing like I was having before. The new extractor really made a difference. I had some trigger time with the Glock and knew I didn't like the extended mag release in it so I replaced that with a standard length one and didn't have any problems with it digging into my left hand like I had during practice. Showdown I forgot to put the GoPro on when I shot this stage so I don't have any video to review but upon reviewing my times I did manage to shoot new fastest single string times for both guns but what good does one single fast string do when your overall time was off by large margin. RFPI - Best single - 4.50, Stage time - 22.30 - .15 seconds slower than best Production - Best single - 4.87, Stage time - 34.74 - 10+ seconds slower than best Roundabout I figured I'd own this stage after posting a best ever single time of 3.55 in practice recently. WRONG! This stage showed me who was the boss at least in production it did. RFPI - Best single - 4.32, Stage time - 19.40 - new best times for both but still a long ways off from B class runs. Production - Best single - 7.26 (3+ seconds slower), Stage time - 33.08 - 13+ seconds slower Smoke and Hope I distinctly remember being totall out of control while shooting this stage. I don't think I saw the front sight at all and it obviously showed in my times. RFPI - Best single 4.14 (.3 seconds slower), Stage time - 18.08 - 4+ seconds slower Production - Best single 4.27 (.5 seconds slower), Stage time - 23.94 - 8+ seconds slower Accelerator That 12" plate in the back killed me. RFPI - Best single 6.05 (1+ seconds slower), Stage time 26.51 - 2+ seconds slower Production - 6.48 (.5 seconds slower), Stage time 34.77 - 10+ seconds slower 5 To Go Plate #3 hates me. RFPI - Best single 5.08 (new best), Stage time - 25.08 - 2+ seconds slower Production - Best single 7.66 (2+ seconds slower), Stage time 42.19 - 14+ seconds slower I've imported the videos I did record onto my iPad and will use ShotCoach to review them. I already know a couple of things I screwed up on (1) too many shots. If you aren't going 5 for 5 you're behind the power curve and (2) shooting out of control. There's really no excuse for shooting that way. Yes the targets on Smoke and Hope are so big and so close but that doesn't mean you don't have to aim at the damn things! Next weekend we have our club match on Saturday and then on Sunday we have our first NSSF Rimfire match. My goals for both matches are to stop chasing fast times and concentrate on the fundamentals. Fast draws, 1 for 1 on all 5 plates, transition with eyes and then gun. I can't expect to progress from C class wihout a solid foundation to build upon. I might luck up and make B but if I can't shoot the stages in a consistently fast manner which good is is doing me? I think for this week I'm going to leave the timer in the range bag to take away the element of time pressure I've been putting myself under lately. Clearly at this point in the game that's not helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 yeah, just put it behind you and move on. most people spend way to much time focusing on what they did wrong vice what they did right. if you were to look at my performance journal you would not see anything in it about mistakes. It's counter productive. It's like saying to yourself before a stage "don't miss" when you should be telling yourself "go 5 for 5". You are right to focus on the fundamentals: fast draw, fast transitions & never miss ... you can only shoot as fast as you can see .... One training technique I use like to ensure I go 5/5 is to only load mags with 5 rds. Its amazing how patient you are with your sights when you know you can't take a M/U shot ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 One training technique I use like to ensure I go 5/5 is to only load mags with 5 rds. Its amazing how patient you are with your sights when you know you can't take a M/U shot ... When I first started shooting steel I shot with a revolver so only having one spare round really made a difference. I'm going to try some 5 round drills tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 whenever I find myself getting a little inpatience I pull out the 5 rd mags ... really helps ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 28, 2015 Author Share Posted January 28, 2015 What was supposed to be a weekend of steel shooting turned out to be a single day of steel shooting due to heavy rains flooding the range and parking areas. This past Sunday we held our first NSSF Rimfire challenge match and it was a lot of fun. We shot 3 stages with pistol and 3 stages with rifle. I had fun setting up the stages. I set up one like smoke and hope except I used 8" plates and move the stop plate from the center to the 2nd plate on the left. I also put an 18x24 stop plate a couple of feet from a 10" plate so if you blew past the 10" plate on the way to the stop plate you bought a mike for your speediness. I remembered to use the GoPro on all of the stages and upon review see why I was slow as a snail. There's just no urgency in my motions. I've got to get more aggressive with bringing the gun/rifle up from low ready and when transitioning between targets. Everyone on my squad was wanting to shoot more so I may add another pistol/rifle stage to the match next month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 do you set a Par time on drills when you live fire? that is a way to always push yourself to go fast. if you just shoot drills and record the time you having no external influence to push you to go faster. humans are basically lazy and we need something to push us to get going ... my Steel match was also canceled due to rain/flooding .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 Haven't tried par times with live fire but that's a great idea. I will give it a try next live fire session. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Seems I haven't posted in forever but I've been shooting quite a bit. I've been concentrating on Rimfire Open pistol and rifle and it has been SO much fun but the fast boys and girls are insanely fast . I've been having some extraction issues with my Ruger 22/45 but I think I may have those worked out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Damn over a month since I last posted. This whole work thing is killing my shooting forum time . I managed to get my first ever division win on a single stage (yes I'm doing anything I can to say I won something!). I shot my best ever Smoke and Hope stage I managed a 11.74 total time and personal best run of 2.40. That combination was good enough for first place in Rimfire Pistol Open. I also shot a sub-12 for Roundabout (11.96) with a fastest run of 2.57. I am really digging the rimfire game. On the centerfire front it looks like I will finally get enough mags to run my Para. I have made a deal to acquire another Para so now I'll have two of them and at least 4 mags I can use. I'm planning to keep one as my centerfire limited gun and build the second one as my centerfire open gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock26Toter Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Nice shooting. Remember the positive, forget the negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToddKS Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 (edited) Great to hear that things are going well for you. What order are you shooting Roundabout in with your rimfire? Edited April 13, 2015 by ToddKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZackJones Posted April 13, 2015 Author Share Posted April 13, 2015 Nice shooting. Remember the positive, forget the negative. Thanks, will do. I wan to keep moving forward that's for sure. Great to hear that things are going well for you. What order are you shooting Roundabout in with your rimfire? Using the Nimitz Numbering System I shoot it 1, 2, 5, 4, S. Back left, front left, front right, back right, stop. For me it just makes sense to shoot the two front plates instead of shooting far, near, far, near, stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasley Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 I agree with that. Distance change ups are giving me a problem. Maybe the old eyes. Maybe just general sucky-ness. According to the tentative new classification system I need a 17.50 in Roundabout and Showdown for B class. As of right now my best Roundabout time is 16.84 and Showdown is 20.09. My Accelerator times also suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimitz Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 ok, maybe i'm still just in a fog from my wrist surgery 2 hrs ago but using "my"numbering system, 1,2,5,4 S is shooting far, near, far,near as #1 is 15 yds, #2 is 7yds, #5 is 7 yds & #4 is 15 yds anf then the stop plate ... what am i missing? Also, as a general rule you want to minimize movement and just sweep in one direction if you can. while your shooting order does that it is also much more 'risky' to shoot #4 last before the stop plate since if you miss it or call a bad shot good you eat a penalty every time. you are also having to decelerate as you move from close to far target and a lot of people find it more difficult to slow down then speed up ... if you shoot it something like: 5,4,1,2,s you eliminate all those concerns and your first shot is to a 12" 7yd target which should be lightening fast in rimfire .... i'm routinely around .55 for the first shot and have done sub .5 on sub 2 sec runs .... you do need to get comfortable shooting right to left but that's something easily addressed in dryfire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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