the correct option is?

[Vince Pinto]

On scenerio 3, If the shooter aims at a target and pulls the trigger, then I'd say No Harm, No Foul. BUT if the shooter merely drops the hammer as in the act of doing a Hammer Down after unloading and showing clear, ESPECIALLY if he nearly jumps out of his skin, not sorry, DQ, Bye and thank you for contributing to the prize table.

Which rule would you cite on the scoresheet?

[Jim Norman]

Since, in my example, the shooter nearly jumped out of his skin, I would cite 10.4.3, A shot fired while Loading or Unloading Also applicable could be 10.5.9, failure to keep the finger out of the trigger guard while loading or unloading.

Jim Norman

[wide45]

The competitor is not inserting/dropping a mag, or racking the slide. He is not loading or unloading.

Try again.

[Jim Norman]

OK, Finger on trigger while doing "a bunch of stuff"

Lets define a "Bunch of Stuff"

Moving, maybe, certainly not engaging targets, Clearing a malfunction? Maybe,

Pointis the gun goes band when the competitor is not expecting it to, whether or not the round leaves the range or not, I will call that a DQ.

We can cite 10.4.4 let eh competitor arbitrate it.

Or are all of you saying that a competitor can, as long as he stands still and does not break the 180, keep his finger on the trigger and point the gun any where withion the confines of the 180 and even if the gun goes off, as long as the round doesn't leave the range its no foul?

If that is the case, I hope I am not around when you are running this guy. It is only by the grace of god and dumb luck that he didn't put one over the berm or into the RO.

Jim Norman

[wide45]

I am at a loss... If you feel the need to make up your own rules, this may not be the sport for you.

[Jim Norman]

Not making up a rule anymore than allowing a holstered gun to break 180 by up to 1 meter is.

Again, define "Fiddling around with his gun"

THe gun went bang when the shooter very obviously diod not want ti to, He was not engaging a target.

Call it what you will, It was and is UNSAFE. The only argument you could make that would change my mind, for a moment, would be a broken gun. And that would stand only if the Match Gunsmith found the gun to be broken.

Lets put you in the position of RO, here is a shooter . "fiddling around with his gun, it goes bang and the shooter is visible shaken by the event.

You want to tell me that this is fine by you? Maybe playing with guns is something that you shouldn't be doing.

Jim Norman

[mcoliver]

I'm not sure if this belongs here, but here it goes anyway (because I've seen it happen twice):

Shooter is navigating a COF and all of a sudden his slide lock breaks and he ends up with only the frame in his hands. His slide is somewhere on the ground.

1. Do you still issue the UASC? (The RO did in the incident leaving the competitor not knowing what to do.)

2. If the slide is pointing uprange, DQ? (Hypothetical, but could have happened if the transistion was wider when the slide flew off).

Thanks.

[Vince Pinto]

Since, in my example, the shooter nearly jumped out of his skin, I would cite 10.4.3, A shot fired while Loading or Unloading Also applicable could be 10.5.9, failure to keep the finger out of the trigger guard while loading or unloading.

Jumping out of one's skin is not grounds for a match DQ. The competitor is entitled to keep shooting, until "If Clear ..." is stated by the RO (see Rule 8.3.7).

[wide45]

Where did you get "Fiddling around with his gun"??????

At no time in this thread has the shooter been "Fiddling around with his gun".

[Jim Norman]

bgary said : Scenario 3:

-- shooter stops shooting

-- RO says "if you are finished..."

-- shooter does a bunch of stuff, points gun at berm, drops hammer

-- gun goes bang.

I equated does a bunch of "Stuff" to "Fiddling around" and since this isn't a sewing circle, I and most I think would assume that this refers to the gun. THe RO had asked Are you Finished, the next command is generally ULSC, since this is hypothetical, I assume taht our intrepid shooter was preparing to unlaod, maybe or maybe not dropping the mag and probably rushing the command as many seem to do today. And if it doesn't, so what? The gun went bang when the person in whose hand it was did not want and certainly did not expect it to. Look at the example I gave. The shooter "nearly jumped out of his skin" should that be too difficultt understand, it means he nearly crapped himself when the gun went off! If you think he should continue shooting after that, fine, please let me know where it is that you will be ROing, I'd like not to be there when this guy is shooting.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

Shooter is navigating a COF and all of a sudden his slide lock breaks and he ends up with only the frame in his hands. His slide is somewhere on the ground.

The event you described is covered by Section 5.7, and the end result is that the subject stage would be scored "as shot". However before scoring can begin, the RO must do whatever needs to be done to make the gun and the range safe, after which the competitor would be able to retire and effect the necessary repairs.

POSTSCRIPT: As an aside, there was a hilarious case of "Oops, there goes my slide" at the European Championships in Greece in 1998. A competitor completed the COF and he complied with the "ULASC" command by locking his slide open. After the RO said "GC, HD, H", the competitor released his slide lock, and the slide moved forward ........ all the way to the ground.

I don't think anybody who witnessed the incident had dry underwear, least of all the RO and the competitor. It was actually captured on film and, if I can get a copy, I'll post it here somewhere.

[Jim Norman]

The world may just be coming to an end.

I find myself in the position of agreeing with Vince.

Heck even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Jim Norman

[Jim Norman]

Since, in my example, the shooter nearly jumped out of his skin, I would cite 10.4.3, A shot fired while Loading or Unloading Also applicable could be 10.5.9, failure to keep the finger out of the trigger guard while loading or unloading.

Jumping out of one's skin is not grounds for a match DQ. The competitor is entitled to keep shooting, until "If Clear ..." is stated by the RO (see Rule 8.3.7).

When a shooter does something at the end of or during a COF that leaves him visibly shaken, I would opt to stop him. Let the situation cool off and if I am over-ruled, fine, I can live with that, a lot easier than I can with a few holes in a fellow competitor.

I would not stop a shooter that was able to continue and did so with nary a pause, I am refering to the shooter that is obviously near to crapping in his pants after teh unintended discharge of his firearm (Said in this manner to differentiate from an AD which is a defined term in the rules)

I am surprised that all of you that would DQ a shooter who fell down with a holstered gun have no qualms about allowing a shooter that lets a round fly while "Doing Stuff" after being asked If you are finshed?" by the RO continue right along.

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

I am surprised that all of you that would DQ a shooter who fell down with a holstered gun have no qualms about allowing a shooter that lets a round fly while "Doing Stuff" after being asked If you are finshed?" by the RO continue right along.

I don't know why you're surprised - in both cases, we're merely applying published rules.

[wide45]

-- shooter does a bunch of stuff, points gun at berm, drops hammer

When the competitor points the gun at the berm, he is no longer doing a bunch of stuff.

sigh...

[Jim Norman]

Please quote the rule that says I can break the 180 in any manner at all.

5.2.7.3 says the muzzle must point within 1 meter, but it does not say that I can point up range at any time.

10.5.6 allows the muzzle to point up to one meter past "While Drawingt or reholstering" but what about while simply holstered?

If you want to read the rules strictly as written without applying interpetation, then anytime the muzzle passes 180, except while actually inthe act of drawing or reholstering is a Match DQ. do no more holsters that cant either forward or backward, no more chair starts.

Back o the discussion at hand.

If the competitor is as I have repeatedly stataed Visibly shaken by teh unintended discharge of his firearm while he was not engaging targets will earn a DQ.

Lets see, if I understand you all, he can stand there "doing Stuff" to his gun all day, finger on the trigger and the gun goes off, hey no problem even though he now needs new shorts? he was not engaging a target, true he was not moving, and "doing stuff" to me would mean some sort of remedial action during which the gun went off, leaving the competitor sahken and you think that is just fine, hey, reload and continue on.

I am stopping that shooter, Depending upon the shoter and the afteraction report from him when everyone is calmed down, I might relent and even issue a reshoot, but it has been my experiance that this shooter would have been on the edge all day and needs to be stopped and given some remedial training before being allowed to continue. Something I would gladly do. Much more gladly than placing a preasure bandage on a bullet hole because I didn't want to hurt his feelings.

The shooter has exhibited obvious signs of unsafe behaviour at this point in the match. THink of it like the definition of pornography given by the court,

I can't define it exactly, but I know it when I see it."

Jim Norman

[Vince Pinto]

Please quote the rule that says I can break the 180 in any manner at all.

There isn't one. Please identify who stated that you could.

Lets see, if I understand you all, he can stand there "doing Stuff" to his gun all day, finger on the trigger and the gun goes off, hey no problem even though he now needs new shorts? he was not engaging a target, true he was not moving, and "doing stuff" to me would mean some sort of remedial action during which the gun went off, leaving the competitor sahken and you think that is just fine, hey, reload and continue on. I am stopping that shooter, Depending upon the shoter and the afteraction report from him when everyone is calmed down, I might relent and even issue a reshoot, <snip>

Please cite the rule which gives you the authority to DQ a competitor and then give him a reshoot.

[bgary]

I'm not sure if this belongs here, but here it goes anyway (because I've seen it happen twice):

Shooter is navigating a COF and all of a sudden his slide lock breaks and he ends up with only the frame in his hands. His slide is somewhere on the ground.

1. Do you still issue the UASC? (The RO did in the incident leaving the competitor not knowing what to do.)

2. If the slide is pointing uprange, DQ? (Hypothetical, but could have happened if the transistion was wider when the slide flew off).

Thanks.

[laughing]

I had this happen to me at the Crazy Croc match a couple of years back.

20 rounds into a 60-round jungle-run, gun goes "click".

The Highly Skilled Operator does a tap-rack... and when I released the slide, it flew off the front of the gun.

I stared at it.

The RO stared at it.

We looked at each other.

And then I said.. "hey, the part with the serial number is still in my hand, so that doesn't count as a dropped gun.... right?" (try to imagine the hopeful tone in my voice)

Anyway, he eventually concurred, and we eventually figured out how to clear the live round out of the chamber.

Bruce

[Jim Norman]

Please quote the rule that says I can break the 180 in any manner at all.

There isn't one. Please identify who stated that you could.

Lets see, if I understand you all, he can stand there "doing Stuff" to his gun all day, finger on the trigger and the gun goes off, hey no problem even though he now needs new shorts? he was not engaging a target, true he was not moving, and "doing stuff" to me would mean some sort of remedial action during which the gun went off, leaving the competitor sahken and you think that is just fine, hey, reload and continue on. I am stopping that shooter, Depending upon the shoter and the afteraction report from him when everyone is calmed down, I might relent and even issue a reshoot, <snip>

Please cite the rule which gives you the authority to DQ a competitor and then give him a reshoot.

Ok, then a holster that points to the ground less than one meter in FRONT of me is ok, unless I turn my back to the targets, then I am breaking the 180. I believe it is you that have indicated that a back to the target start is OK, even though the muzzle of my now holstered gun points uprange, so long as it does not point past one meter in front of (or behind) me.

See my earlier post regarding allowance for holster/muzzle angle during draw or reholster.

If you cannot ever under any circumstances period ever break the 180, then all back to target starts are done for if the shooter is wearing a holster that is any other than straight up and down. All seated starts are foreever gone even with a straight up and down holster.

I agree that once the shooter has started to move to draw his gun, the 180 rule goes into effect, but that is not what the rules say. They say, no break ever.

As to DQing and reinstating, OK, I stop the shooter, I am overturned by the RM or MD, the shooter is reinstated and can continue, since I stopped him, he gets a reshoot since my stopping him was in error. However if the RM/MD upholds me, then the shooter can file an arbitration and if he wins, he is reinstated.

Jim

[Vince Pinto]

Ok, then a holster that points to the ground less than one meter in FRONT of me is ok, unless I turn my back to the targets, then I am breaking the 180. I believe it is you that have indicated that a back to the target start is OK, even though the muzzle of my now holstered gun points uprange, so long as it does not point past one meter in front of (or behind) me.

<sigh> Your second sentence contradicts your first sentence! Anyway, as I stated in this post, there are no directional words such as "forwards" or "rearwards" in Rule 5.2.7.3, hence the 1 metre muzzle allowance while holstered applies in all directions.

If you cannot ever under any circumstances period ever break the 180, then all back to target starts are done for if the shooter is wearing a holster that is any other than straight up and down. All seated starts are foreever gone even with a straight up and down holster.

No, no, no. You are allowed a 1 metre allowance while the gun is holstered, and you are allowed a 1 meter allowance on the draw, and you are allowed a 1 meter allowance during reholstering. However if, for any other reason or at any other time, the muzzle of your gun points uprange (e.g. falling flat on your face with a loaded and holstered gun), you are subject to a match DQ.

To put it another way, if your muzzle points uprange at anytime during a COF, you are subject to a match disqualification except if the muzzle of your gun remains within the 1 metre allowance while it's holstered, while you're drawing or while you're re-holstering.

As to DQing and reinstating, OK, I stop the shooter, I am overturned by the RM or MD, the shooter is reinstated and can continue, since I stopped him, he gets a reshoot since my stopping him was in error. However if the RM/MD upholds me, then the shooter can file an arbitration and if he wins, he is reinstated.

The MD is never in the Match DQ decision or appeal loop. The only person who can overturn a Match DQ is your CRO or RM - see Rules 11.1.3 and 11.1.4.

[Caspian_45]

I do not like the new "if clear" part. If I am the RO running the shooter, I am going to see that the chamber is clear. There is no IF in safety. I don't see a clear chamber then I will not continue with the commands.

Next issue.

[Jim Norman]

Ok, then a holster that points to the ground less than one meter in FRONT of me is ok, unless I turn my back to the targets, then I am breaking the 180. I believe it is you that have indicated that a back to the target start is OK, even though the muzzle of my now holstered gun points uprange, so long as it does not point past one meter in front of (or behind) me.

<sigh> Your second sentence contradicts your first sentence! Anyway, as I stated in this post, there are no directional words such as "forwards" or "rearwards" in Rule 5.2.7.3, hence the 1 metre muzzle allowance while holstered applies in all directions.

If you cannot ever under any circumstances period ever break the 180, then all back to target starts are done for if the shooter is wearing a holster that is any other than straight up and down. All seated starts are foreever gone even with a straight up and down holster.

No, no, no. You are allowed a 1 metre allowance while the gun is holstered, and you are allowed a 1 meter allowance on the draw, and you are allowed a 1 meter allowance during reholstering. However if, for any other reason or at any other time, the muzzle of your gun points uprange (e.g. falling flat on your face with a loaded and holstered gun), you are subject to a match DQ.

To put it another way, if your muzzle points uprange at anytime during a COF, you are subject to a match disqualification except if the muzzle of your gun remains within the 1 metre allowance while it's holstered, while you're drawing or while you're re-holstering.

As to DQing and reinstating, OK, I stop the shooter, I am overturned by the RM or MD, the shooter is reinstated and can continue, since I stopped him, he gets a reshoot since my stopping him was in error. However if the RM/MD upholds me, then the shooter can file an arbitration and if he wins, he is reinstated.

The MD is never in the Match DQ decision or appeal loop. The only person who can overturn a Match DQ is your CRO or RM - see Rules 11.1.3 and 11.1.4.

OK, So it is non directional, therefore it is omnidirectional which also seems to indicate that you CAN break the 180 with a holstered gun.

So, we are also reading in to this non stated omnidirectonal exception (please show me where this rule specifically allows for the gun to point up range at anytime, it meerly states that the gun must point within one meter of the competitors feet) that the competitor can actually under certain limited circumstances break the 180. Example being the El Prez start position.

All I am saying is we either actually spell out the exception or it doesn't exist. Show us where the one rule says we can ignore the other!

At most CLUB level matches, the MD and the RM are one and the same. The CRO can as stated also overturn the DQ issued by the RO on the stage in question. So my argument still stands. I will stop any shooter that lets an unintentional round go and reacts in such a manner that he is obviously not inthe proper frame of mind to continue to run around with a loaded gun. A reshoot is far better than a hole that needs patching.

[Vince Pinto]

OK. I'm done here .....

[Jim Norman]

Vince says:

To put it another way, if your muzzle points uprange at anytime during a COF, you are subject to a match disqualification except if the muzzle of your gun remains within the 1 metre allowance while it's holstered, while you're drawing or while you're re-holstering.

So, does that mean that I can start my draw in an El Prez, before I am completely turned? As long as I don't break a 1 meter circle with my gun, this would be fine with you.

Hope I'm in another place when this is happening. Let's face facts, no one can accurately tell where one meter is while the shooter is drawing and turning at the same time.

Jim

[John Baier]

I was under the impression that the RM can't not overturn a DQ given by a CRO