rmills Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Rmills, In my experience trying to get a rules decision from headquarters is akin to pulling teeth out of a hippo. I understand that after almost 4 years there are going to be some out of date rules, but almost any organization I have been a part of has been able to figure out how to rewrite a 50 page book every 1-2 years. For hell sakes IDPA could at least update the webpage. IMHO it is a poor excuse for an organization to impart on its members the responsibility of chasing down the lates rules. Not to mention how do I give out a procedural or enforce a rule with respect to a relatively new shooter who is following the LGB but has not become savvy enough to carry around a notebook of updates. Craig In our area we see none of the incidents that everyone is refering to. When we ask for a ruling from HQ, we receive it and then present it before the match starts. It's never an issue. For what it's worth, I quit shooting USPSA after 12 years due to all of the reasons stated above concerning IDPA. Issues such as 40 rounds from one shooting position in one string, shooters being able to argue why they should not be penalized for completely circumventing the stage procedure (and winning the argument most of the time), made it apparent that the organization was loosing all credibility. The number of competitors at our matches continues to increase each year. Anyway, back to airgunning................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Rmills this very topic has been discussed on this forum for a very long time, and we even had Mrs. Bill Wilson try to explain some of the "calls" from HQ, but it appears that she cannot explain away the things that happen on a far too regular basis, and has ceased to participate in our discussions; that is too bad... There is no doubt that many people love to shoot IDPA and that the premise of the sport is appealing to lots of shooters...count me in that group till 2002..when like Vincent, I had a "problem" with the powers that be at a match or two... Let me say that I don't have a problem with folllowing the WRITTEN rules, but the very idea of the MD or the Area Coordinator pulling a ruling out of a bodily orifice during the course of a match without substantiation from the LGB is not only discouraging to the competitors, it is plain wrong, both ethically and logically... The confrontational and adversarial attitude of some of these people is detrimental to the sport. It is indeed too bad that anyone is made to feel like they cannot get a fair deal regarding the rules and leave the sport, but looking at the incidents it is amazing that most if not all the incidents like Vincents and mine happen to Master shooters who are really trying to do their best against continually more difficult competition...and it only takes one incident like ours to make you join USPSA and let your IDPA membership lapse I am not slamming shooters with classifications less than IDPA Master, but unless you are used to seeing your name at the top of the page, not just for your class and division, but for HOA, you have NO idea how demoralizing it is to have some wanna be CSO, MD or Area Coordinator enforce a penalty on you which takes you out of the running for even the top 5 in class much less the HOA, when many others are skating with the same infractions and no penalties.. Proponents like you of the sport are trying to compete and then defend the calls of the MD's after the fact to guys like me who have fought those wars first hand and are very hard to convince... What we need is to have one of the founding fathers of the sport come on line with some real definitive information on these questions..information that cannot be misunderstood or the meaning lost in transition from the decision maker to a proponent like yourself.. and very unfortunately, I don't see Bill Wilson logging on to Benos's forum to get those kinds of issues settled once and for all.. This argument could and probably will rage on and on till a watershed moment happens in IDPA, whenever that might be..if ever....I would suggest that you take a day or two and read some of the long and very passionate threads on this very forum discussing this very thing here on the forum...it might not answer all your questions but it will allow you to see that there are some very strong feelings on both sides of the coin here and also allow you to understand why some of the members like me don't share your enthusiasm for a "righting of the IDPA ship" anytime soon... Hope this is not too long, nor too argumentative for your sensibilities, just trying to provide information so you can see if you want to continue to be an outspoken proponent of IDPA or someone like me who, loved the sport in the beginning, but now, for the most part just hang my head at the futility of the whole mess.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe D Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 It is too bad the Wilson does not frequent some of the forums. Maybe he likes to insulate himself from the very people that pay his salary. Most of the suggestions I have seen in the past by us shooters were usually well thought out and sincere. He needs to get the IPSC phobia out of his thought train. Anyone that pulls a trigger in competition is my bud. As I have stated many times before, get rid of the little headquarters emails and post any rule changes or clarifications on the IDPA website. Heck, if they do not have enough people to do that I will be glad to. Better yet dump Ken's Corner and put them there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Tightloop: I guess our roles are reversed. The feelings and opinions you have against IDPA are exactly the same ones I have against USPSA. The rationale used by those who come from USPSA, attempt to shoot IDPA, and then get disgruntled because they can't game their way to a stage win vs. shooting well, is irrelevant in this forum. We can agree to disagree on this issue. Far too often this forum is used by USPSA shooters to bash IDPA (maybe I'm a little guilty of that in the USPSA forums). I'm issuing myself a moratorium in regards to the USPSA forums. I'll no longer make comments on those forums as I no longer shoot USPSA. By the way, airgunning is still against the rules! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Rmills Yes, we can agree to disagree...thanks for that.. I too come from an IPSC background...78-87 and now again...I fought the IPSC Wars with gun changes every month, thru iron sights to scopes and red dots... I love both sports, it is too bad there is such discention between the proponents of each.. Airgunning is part of the "game", get used to it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullautodave Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 It is too bad the Wilson does not frequent some of the forums. He does look at at least some of these forums, I have a nasty e-mail from him to prove it. DA Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I would love to encourage his interaction but am at a loss how to get that done...and haven't seen a post from his wife in quite a while now... Mearly browsing the forums and replying to individuals, IMO, is not the way to convince shooters that he is making the needed changes within that organization... Curious to know what you said to solicit a personal reply...PM me if it is not applicable for public forum consumption... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 The rationale used by those who come from USPSA, attempt to shoot IDPA, and then get disgruntled because they can't game their way to a stage win vs. shooting well, is irrelevant in this forum. I have to disagree with that statement. Most USPSA shooters in my area that try IDPA end up shooting very well and are often winning. Unfortunately, there isn't the level of cross-competition as I think there should be either going either way. I think what befuddles most USPSA shooters about IDPA is that, on one hand there are very strict and well spelled out rules for guns and holsters, and even the COF's themselves, which are written in such a way that everyone who follows the engagement rules shoots the same way. On the other hand, you have very cloudy and convoluded application of other "rules" (written or not) like FTDR. I understand and appreciate the spirit and intent of the IDPA. What is happening though, it seems, is that the spirit of the game and the application of rules of the game are not on the same plane. Yes, unfortunately, IDPA is given a hard time here from time to time and sometimes unjustly. USPSA isn't without its folly either. But, I think it is important also to point out when them emporer isn't wearing any clothes either. I have visited the IDPA website and read Ken's Corner. I'm also (as I type this) reading the rule book and have come across something I find a bit ironic consider the current conversation on air-gunning: Gun Handling Issues: It is highly (emphasis mine) recommended that contestants become comfortable with performing either a "tactical reload" or a "magazine change with retention" between strings (emphasis mine) of fire as they re-charge their pistols. Okay... Practicing tac-loads and MCWR during a COF - good Air-Gunning - bad WTF? I believe that if you take IDPA and its stated purpose (that appears in the rule book) to its logical end, there should be no such thing as a walk-through or stage description or whatever you call it. Make sure everyone knows what no-shoot targets are, where the fault lines and muzzle control points are for safety, call up the next shooter, give them a standby and BEEP. Although I haven't been in a real-life gunfight, but it doesn't take much to figure out that, in the real world, you don't get a walk-though either. I'll continue to shoot both. I'll sneer at IDPA for their self-imposed irony, and I'll cuss at USPSA for their lack of clarity. You can't please all of the people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 The rationale used by those who come from USPSA, attempt to shoot IDPA, and then get disgruntled because they can't game their way to a stage win vs. shooting well, is irrelevant in this forum. Roy, I think everyone here would agree that whoever shoots the best ought to be the winner. When you use the term "game" or "gamer", it sounds to me like you mean cheater. It sounds like you are casting a big loop and including all USPSA shooters in that meaning. Perhaps you have some problems with some particular individuals? Or, do you really mean all USPSA shooters (or most...or whatever)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBaneACP Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I think a lot of the subjectivity issues are coming home to roost...the shine is pretty much off the sport, and I would be very surprised if IDPA was showing a net (note that pesky word, NET) increase in members these days. Don't get me wrong--it's still fun to shoot, although there are Local Tactical Gods with whom I will not run a stage if they're officiating (and I'm a big enough a^$hole to make that stick). It's a shame, really. As Duane T. has reminded me, it's just another sport with another set of non-realistic BS rules and the standard quota of Nazis. Do what the not-so-nice man tells you to do. Too bad. It started out with such promise! mb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Back on topic : I think Michael Brown's original question has been answered and we should either stay on topic or lock the thread before it becomes another USPSA vs. IDPA rant. just my 2 cents , Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Mark Where's your sense of adventure??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 It is highly (emphasis mine) recommended that contestants become comfortable with performing either a "tactical reload" or a "magazine change with retention" between strings (emphasis mine) of fire as they re-charge their pistols.Okay... Practicing tac-loads and MCWR during a COF - good Air-Gunning - bad WTF? They're not saying you should practice tac-loads and reloads with retention during a course of fire. They're saying they highly recommend you practice enough BEFORE the match that you can do a tac-load or reload with retention to top off the gun BETWEEN strings, on a stage that has multiple strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 As Duane T. has reminded me, it's just another sport with another set of non-realistic BS rules and the standard quota of Nazis. Wow, there's some serious paraphrasing. I think I actually said something like, "I don't agree with every rule in IDPA, but I still follow them." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 Kyle: I no longer shoot USPSA for the similiar reasons that posters here have stated that they no longer shoot IDPA, period. It's nothing personal, I just like the sport and the simplicity it brings back to competitive shooting. As far as USPSA shooters go, I've seen many come to IDPA matches totally unprepared and unaware of the rules. As a result, they hosed the targets, talked about how fast they were, and then complained about how far down the results list they appeared due to poor hits on the targets. They receive a procedural for not using cover and try to argue that there was no need for cover as they shot the threat so fast that cover was unecessary. These are the shooters we see attempting IDPA and quiting since they cannot compete (or do not want to) in the framework of the rules. If one doesn't wish to compete under IDPA rules, then don't come to IDPA matches and then complain. Michael: Yes, attendance at our IDPA matches over the last few years has grown and continues to grow. At the local matches in our area, we don't see all of the problems that are discussed here. If there is an issue, it's discussed, and a ruling is made. I've never seen anyone get upset and leave. Yes, there have been poor calls, stages, etc. at many IDPA matches over the years JUST like there has been at USPSA matches. As long as humans are running the matches, mistakes, personalities, and other factors sometimes create less than perfect results. This happens regardless of the sport. As Forest Gump said, "that's all I've got to say about that". Sorry Mark for the rant................................. I'm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 As Duane T. has reminded me, it's just another sport with another set of non-realistic BS rules and the standard quota of Nazis. Wow, there's some serious paraphrasing. I think I actually said something like, "I don't agree with every rule in IDPA, but I still follow them." Well stated Duane! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 It is highly (emphasis mine) recommended that contestants become comfortable with performing either a "tactical reload" or a "magazine change with retention" between strings (emphasis mine) of fire as they re-charge their pistols.Okay... Practicing tac-loads and MCWR during a COF - good Air-Gunning - bad WTF? They're not saying you should practice tac-loads and reloads with retention during a course of fire. They're saying they highly recommend you practice enough BEFORE the match that you can do a tac-load or reload with retention to top off the gun BETWEEN strings, on a stage that has multiple strings. I disagree, Duane. I still don't understand how it is okay to do this one thing while not under the clock that your're also required to perform during scenario, but not another? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 21, 2004 Share Posted November 21, 2004 I have to agree with Dave.....if it is off the clock, what does it matter what kind of reload you do ...this may be the IPSC training coming out in me, but AGAIN, if I am off the clock, I don't need some yahoo telling me how to reload my pistol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I guess my yahoo factor is a bit higher. Some ranges/SOs/sports prefer you reload the gun out of the holster, some think doing the mag change with the gun holstered is cool. Whatever. It's no big deal, either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 So, did we determine the answer to the original question is, "It didn't happen"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fullautodave Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 "By the way, airgunning is still against the rules" Where is it written that airgunning is against the rules? Sight pictures, yes. DA Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 "By the way, airgunning is still against the rules"Where is it written that airgunning is against the rules? Sight pictures, yes. DA Dave At the 2003 Nationals (correct me if I'm wrong as to the year) it was announced that "air gunning" was illegal. This decision was made by Bill Wilson, Ken Hackathorn, etc., the people who determine the rules for IDPA. As with USPSA, when rule changes happen, a new rule book is not immediately released, but the information is disseminated via e-mail, section coordinators, etc. If you need a document defining that air gunning is illegal, please contact HQ and they will gladly sent out a correspondance confirming this issue. If anyone has any other questions, don't hesitate to e-mail IDPA HQ and they will respond in a timely manner with the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 As with USPSA, when rule changes happen, a new rule book is not immediately released, but the information is disseminated via e-mail, section coordinators, etc. A slight clarification, if I may: With USPSA, the rules are the rules. Clarifications, interpretive rulings, etc., are disseminated through the USPSA website, and "Front Sight" (the "official newsletter of the org"). *New* rules (or substantive changes to existing rules) are not disseminated in this way because there is no way to ensure that every member is aware of them. We want to always be sure that pulling the curent rulebook out of your pocket at a match will yield "correct" information. So when we add or change rules in some substantive way, they only become effective when a new rulebook is printed. Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 As with USPSA, when rule changes happen, a new rule book is not immediately released, but the information is disseminated via e-mail, section coordinators, etc. A slight clarification, if I may: With USPSA, the rules are the rules. Clarifications, interpretive rulings, etc., are disseminated through the USPSA website, and "Front Sight" (the "official newsletter of the org"). *New* rules (or substantive changes to existing rules) are not disseminated in this way because there is no way to ensure that every member is aware of them. We want to always be sure that pulling the curent rulebook out of your pocket at a match will yield "correct" information. So when we add or change rules in some substantive way, they only become effective when a new rulebook is printed. Bruce Gary, you are correct in your statement and I apologize. With IDPA the rules are the rules. However, HQ does issue "clarifications" for such things as the airgunning issue (non-issue for most of us). Any of these clarifications are available at anytime from HQ. Thanks for helping me "clarify" the verbage. It would appear that both organizations handle the issue exactly the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted November 22, 2004 Share Posted November 22, 2004 I beg to differ that both organizations handle rules and changes to them in the same manner....Never have I seen a MD, or CRO or anyone else interpret the rules at a USPSA match...they are always quoting the rule book and it is there for all to see...the other group will gladly interpret on the fly when it suits their purpose and time constraints.. been there, seen that ...more than a few times with both organizations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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