Magazine inserted, chamber empty. Legal in USPSA?

[Cy Soto]

I know that this starting position is legal in IPSC but, in USPSA, is it legal to have a starting position where a magazine is inserted into the pistol but its chamber is empty? If not, what rule prohibits it?

[bikerburgess]

You can specify any start condition/position you want in the written stage briefing.

Rule 8.1.3 covers it

Mike

[Sarge]

Not exactly true.

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or

hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby”

command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

Relevant rules that allow empty chamber starts are:

8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to

those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be

clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready

Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or

cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down

or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the

stage briefing.

Also the main rule indicates it is allowable to start with an empty chamber and mag in gun.

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in

the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must

not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of

the handgun.

[JFlowers]

Empty starts are bad enough, but the Empty Chamber/Mag inserted started really hammers the revolver shooters.

[Cy Soto]

Empty starts are bad enough, but the Empty Chamber/Mag inserted started really hammers the revolver shooters.

Good point. I hadn't thought about that.

So, if I understand correctly, in order to comply with this starting position when shooting revolver, the shooter can only load 5 rounds (in a six shot revo) and place the empty chamber in the 12 o'clock position; correct?

Edited September 15, 2013 by Cy Soto

[Nik Habicht]

Cy,

you could also run into some other issues, depending on how you configure the start for the gun:

Loaded Firearm . . . . . . . .A firearm having a live or dummy round in the chamber or cylinder, or having a live or dummy round in a magazine inserted in the firearm.

and

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:
10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

and

10.5.3 If at any time during the course of fire, or while loading, reloading or unloading, a competitor drops his handgun or causes it to fall, loaded or not. Note that a competitor who, for any reason during a course of fire, safely and intentionally places the handgun on the ground or other stable object will not be disqualified provided:
10.5.3.1 The competitor maintains constant physical contact with the handgun, until it is placed firmly and securely on the ground or another stable object, and
10.5.3.2 The competitor remains within 3 feet of the handgun at all times (except where the handgun is placed at a greater distance, under the supervision of a Range Official, in order to comply with a
start position), and

10.5.3.3 The provisions of Rule 10.5.2 do not occur, and

10.5.3.4 The handgun is in the ready condition as specified in Section 8.1, or

10.5.3.5 A self-loading pistol has an empty chamber, the magazine removed and the slide locked open, or
10.5.3.6 A revolver has the cylinder open and empty.

In short I see more headaches, than potential upside......

Unless it's a Glock only match? :P

[coldchar]

Empty starts are bad enough, but the Empty Chamber/Mag inserted started really hammers the revolver shooters.

Good point. I hadn't thought about that.

So, if I understand correctly, in order to comply with this starting position when shooting revolver, the shooter can only load 5 rounds (in a six shot revo) and place the empty chamber in the 12 o'clock position; correct?

Now you are inventing things, the revolver shooters simply don't fit in what you suggest. Unless you don't recognize them and send them home.

Jim

[bikerburgess]

Not exactly true.

8.2.3 A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or

hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the Standby

command and before the Start Signal (except for unavoidable touching with the lower arms).

Relevant rules that allow empty chamber starts are:

8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to

those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be

clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready

Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or

cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down

or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the

stage briefing.

Also the main rule indicates it is allowable to start with an empty chamber and mag in gun.

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in

the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must

not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of

the handgun.

Thank you, for the clarification.

[Cy Soto]

Now you are inventing things, the revolver shooters simply don't fit in what you suggest. Unless you don't recognize them and send them home.

Jim

I was not aware that IPSC had done away with its revolver division.

[JAFO]

So, if I understand correctly, in order to comply with this starting position when shooting revolver, the shooter can only load 5 rounds (in a six shot revo) and place the empty chamber in the 12 o'clock position; correct?

Fairness between revos and autos aside, if the intent is for the gun to go "click" instead of "bang" when the trigger is pulled on an empty chamber start, wouldn't you start revolvers so the first pull revolves to the empty chamber, rather than hammer over the empty chamber?

[JFlowers]

Empty starts are bad enough, but the Empty Chamber/Mag inserted started really hammers the revolver shooters.

Good point. I hadn't thought about that.

So, if I understand correctly, in order to comply with this starting position when shooting revolver, the shooter can only load 5 rounds (in a six shot revo) and place the empty chamber in the 12 o'clock position; correct?

No, for a revolver this would be basically an empty start. At least that is the way it has always been handled anywhere I have shot.

[Cy Soto]

Empty starts are bad enough, but the Empty Chamber/Mag inserted started really hammers the revolver shooters.

Good point. I hadn't thought about that.

So, if I understand correctly, in order to comply with this starting position when shooting revolver, the shooter can only load 5 rounds (in a six shot revo) and place the empty chamber in the 12 o'clock position; correct?

No, for a revolver this would be basically an empty start. At least that is the way it has always been handled anywhere I have shot.

Oh, in that case, that makes it even easier to implement fairly across the board to all revolver shooters.

[BlueOvalBandit]

Empty starts are bad enough, but the Empty Chamber/Mag inserted started really hammers the revolver shooters.

Good point. I hadn't thought about that.

So, if I understand correctly, in order to comply with this starting position when shooting revolver, the shooter can only load 5 rounds (in a six shot revo) and place the empty chamber in the 12 o'clock position; correct?

No, for a revolver this would be basically an empty start. At least that is the way it has always been handled anywhere I have shot.

That has been my understanding as well. Empty chamber is an empty chamber, it just so happens a revolver has 6 chambers regardless of position.