Pierruiggi Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 When the time comes to unload and show clear, in my club after closing the slide, and when told to "hammer down", the shooter is expected to dryfire his pistol while pointing it at the backstop. Recently I read (I don't remember where, so I don't know if it is an official USPSA/IPSC position or a range rule) that in a pistol equipped with a decocker, the shooter can be allowed to lower the hammer with it. So, here goes the questions: 1. What does IPSC has to say about this? 2. In case the rules allow the shooter to decock instead of dryfire; can a RO politely ask the shooter to dryfire their gun? If denied, can the RO demand it (as a range rule at least)? In my personal point of view, the whole point of the "unload and show clear" procedure is to be redundant and have several failsafes. I.E. The shooter is pointing the muzzle at the backstop, removes the magazine, removes the unused round from the chamber, visually inspects the chamber, and finally dryfires the pistol causing the hammer to activate the firing pin (or striker for you non hammer guys) so that if for some unthinkable reason (like the chupacabra materialized a live round into your chamber using black magic) there's a round in there, it will safely fire into the backstop. Of course the RO is supervising the whole procedure so there are 2 sets of eyes paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 Recently I read (I don't remember where, so I don't know if it is an official USPSA/IPSC position or a range rule) that in a pistol equipped with a decocker, the shooter can be allowed to lower the hammer with it. Absolutely not! 8.3.7 "If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster" – After issuance of this command, the competitor must not resume shooting (see Rule 10.6.1). While continuing to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows: ........ 8.3.7.1 Self-loaders – release the slide and pull the trigger (without touching the hammer, if any). ........ 8.3.7.2 Revolvers – close the empty cylinder (without touching the hammer, if any). BTW, I have no idea what is "chupacabra", but can I buy pills to prevent it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierruiggi Posted November 11, 2004 Author Share Posted November 11, 2004 WOW that was a fast reply!!! Thanks Vince! The chupacabra is a local "Yeti" or something like that, it is supposed to be an alien or a demon or a mutant or whatever that sucks (chupa, to suck; cabra, goat; although most of its victims are cows and horses) the animal's insides. It all began when a relatively large number of rural animals were found dissected in their feeding fields. And this repeats every once in a few years. It is a local mistery/myth/urban legend, although I believe there are variants of it in other parts of South America. Do a Google (or your favorite search engine) image search if you'd like to see some "identikits" of it, but be aware that some of the pictures you'll find will be gruesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 I second Vince's reply. remember safety comes first Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 I have a question that goes along with it. What happens if after visually inspected by the RO and yourself there IS a round in the chamber and it went off when you pulled the trigger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Jake, To answer your question, the shooter is still DQ'ed, and the RO will have to hang his head in shame for failing the competitor. The RM will probably have some choice and very stern words for said RO, but the burden lies with the shooter to make sure the gun is empty before he or she pulls the trigger. RO's are there to help you not get DQ'd, so I personally would feel very bad if I failed to detect a round in the gun. That is why we're there. That is also why the commands were changed to say "if clear" rather than "gun clear", to put the onus on the shooter. Hope this helps. Jeff PS Uncle Vinny...How'd I do??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Brown noser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 PS Uncle Vinny...How'd I do??? Very good, and I'm proud of you, but you only get a Silver Star because you didn't quote the relevant rules: 8.3.7.4 If the gun does not prove to be clear, the Range Officer will resume the commands from Rule 8.3.6 (also see Rule 10.4.3). 10.4.3 A shot which occurs while preparing to or while actually loading, reloading or unloading a handgun. This includes any shot fired during the procedures outlined in Rule 8.3.7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 The chupacabra is a local "Yeti" or something like that, it is supposed to be an alien or a demon or a mutant or whatever that sucks (chupa, to suck; cabra, goat; although most of its victims are cows and horses) the animal's insides. Hmmm. Yes, I'm familiar with the word "chupa" - it's also used in the Philippines ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 And then there are the "chupachup" popsickles around here ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 "And then there are the "chupachup" popsickles around here ...." Good heavens! This is supposed to be a family-oriented forum; please do not let this thread go down-hill the way that CORNHOLE thread did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 How would you handle a Production class shooter that has a gun type that requires a magazine in the gun to drop the hammer when the shooter does not have an empty magazine with them? Does the RO hold the gun while the shooter empties the magazine? Does the shooter holster the gun and empty the magazine? Before LAMR do you ask the shooter what type of gun they have and will they need a magazine in the gun to drop the hammer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 LeRoy, I make it a point to note the type of gun being used by all competitors before I issue the LAMR command and if it's, say, a Browning HP, I'll always ask the competitor whether or not his magazine safety has been deactivated and, more often than not, the answer is "Yes", so no problem. However if his mag safety is still active, and if he doesn't have a spare mag to use during the ULSC procedure, I'll ask him to either holster or ground his gun, empty a mag, then I'll resume the unloading process from the top with the ULSC command a second time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Vince, Wouldn't deactivating the magazine safety be more than "minor detailing"? Thus, making the gun illegal for IPSC Production? Leroy, I think most shooters (unless they are brand new) know that their gun will require an empty mag to do the proper unloading sequence. The shooters that I have ran always had an empty in their back pocket. The mag safety doesn't negate the requirement to drop the hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Wouldn't deactivating the magazine safety be more than "minor detailing"? Thus, making the gun illegal for IPSC Production? Absolutely, but the Browning HP is an SAO gun, so it's not on the Approved Gun List (and I can't think of any gun on the list which has a mag safety). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 Oh...sorry. I missed that. I had the CZ75 in mind (I think). Which has something in it that shooters like to deactivate? Something that lets the mags drop free? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 (and I can't think of any gun on the list which has a mag safety). Any 3rd generation Smith & Wesson semi-auto... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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