michael1778 Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I've had some time off from all this due to graduate school responsibilities, etc. Anyway, I'm thinking of going really light and likely short length on a new upper for my existing lower. Some of our stages need really fast transitions and if we shoot from another freakin' car I'll have a fit. And knowing our match director, who seems to love the cars, we will see tight confines on a very regular basis. Stand by for my "fit". To try to mitigate that, I now care about "short" as well as fast/light. I'm planning a 18" or 20" upper for the matches that go over 400 yards, to put this all in the best context. I have two questions for the group: Limiting consideration to 16" or 14.5" with pinned comp barrels, which makers should I be looking at for good sources of barrels equal to the task of no more than 250 yard targets (about 8" steel, let's say)? I'm guessing either BCM or Daniel Defense lightweight mid-length barrels would be options to start, but I worry I'm missing somebody good. For example, I'd love to try a Criterion pencil in 16" but the darn thing is carbine gas. I asked Criterion and they don't make a middy in that profile. Who am I missing as a good barrel maker for this short-to middle range use? Adjustable gas or just a simple low profile block? I happen to like Syrac blocks, but again, I don't want to miss some wisdom from the multitude of more experienced members here. I don't think I have a good enough view of the industry and welcome your feedback on good vendors for 3-gun given the scenario above. Thanks in advance. -- Mike PS -- I love shoot houses and want to do them again. More small spaces! PPS -- I have a gun trust but have not applied for any of my lowers to be SBR. It would take a long time and the gear wouldn't be in place for this autumn's matches. More a long term option, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 I just put together an upper with a DD lightweight 16" 1:7 barrel, a 15.5" Nordic handguard on a BCM upper. Its stupid light without being all that expensive. Im gonna shoot it in the next week or so but I would imagine a setup like that would be more than accurate enough for a 250 yd and in gun. Probably more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 There was a discussion on what Daniel Horner has been using for 3GN - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175438&page=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 There was a discussion on what Daniel Horner has been using for 3GN - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175438&page=1 Yup, read that whole thread before. Trying to go that direction without having to get a "stamp". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 I just put together an upper with a DD lightweight 16" 1:7 barrel, a 15.5" Nordic handguard on a BCM upper. Its stupid light without being all that expensive. Im gonna shoot it in the next week or so but I would imagine a setup like that would be more than accurate enough for a 250 yd and in gun. Probably more... Aaron, is that barrel mid-length gas? Thanks. What did you use for a gas block? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Just a point of order...not all of the "Pros" are copying the short barrel that Horner is using. Also, I have not seen any data on the loads he is shooting... So, for a given 55gr FMJ at say a rated 3000 fps, here are some things to consider... If you lay the 18" as the standard, what do you get when you go to a 20" barrel? A bit more velocity and a tad less recoil. Probably a tad more weight and so for distances past 400 yards, maybe the ability for your "Hold" to be a bit more steady resulting in a faster 1st shot hit. When you drop back to a 16", you are going from rifle length to carbine, mid or intermediate length gas. Less weight and more gas at a higher pressure results is a more twitchy rifle. If you are careful with loads and tuning, you can get the rifle as flat and fast as an 18" and keep the splits times pretty darn close. But for that base load, it will be a slightly more violent recoil impulse and will slow the splits a tad holding the same spread as the 18". Also, you will find yourself overdriving targets for a bit until you get used to it. When you get used to it, you may then increase your transition times on your 18" gun. When you drop back to a 14.5, you are almost certainly going with carbine gas and unless you go with some loads built for that system, the on timer splits holding 2 shots on target inside 100 yards was never better than a 16" mid-gas and enough of a difference that on a hoser rifle stage, it could cost a few spots. I ran a bunch of tests on the timer and found that for me, even in and out of cars and such, my base 18" gun offered the best overall performance as far as score was concerned. I ran the "long" rifle stage at Noveske (a little close paper, 100 yards gongs and 185 yard flashers) several times with different set-ups and recorded only the shooting times at positions. My 18" beat the 20", 16" and 14.5" no matter what I did. The only 16" I currently have in .223 serves a lot of roles. It is a suppressor host, a test platform for comps, one I shoot at local matches sometimes and generally abuse it doing some drills. The barrel I went with is a Del-Ton 16" mid-length, chrome-lined. It has the original prototype Carbon Arms non-adjustable gas block and I primarily run the Hornady Steel match 55s out of it, which run 2840. It is a fairly light and cheap barrel, but even with the HALO suppressor on it, I can hit 8" steel 1 for 1 at 200 yards in match conditions. Benched with a 10x, it holds under 2 MOA out to 300 yards. Adjustable gas blocks on rifle length gas...I don't care for the leaks and failure rates. When you go shorter, the pressures and temperatures go UP and so do the failure rates. Hope that helps some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Daniel Defense 16" lightweight, with one of their modular hand guards. The new Surefire Muzzle breaks help a lot. You can use a LMOS or a regular one, may need to cut springs a little till you get the bounce down. Just use a regular gas block unless you will be running a silencer a lot, that's where they help. Criterion pencils are good. THe other thing is the scope. An Eotech is awesome. Some people prefer Aimpoints...... Got to look through a few of them and decide what's best for your eyes. Hell, a stock M4 might be your best and cheapest bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 (edited) Daniel Defense 16" lightweight, with one of their modular hand guards. The new Surefire Muzzle breaks help a lot. You can use a LMOS or a regular one, may need to cut springs a little till you get the bounce down. Just use a regular gas block unless you will be running a silencer a lot, that's where they help. Criterion pencils are good. THe other thing is the scope. An Eotech is awesome. Some people prefer Aimpoints...... Got to look through a few of them and decide what's best for your eyes. Hell, a stock M4 might be your best and cheapest bet. Thank you. What I've seen, I have a slight preference for EOtech. I seem to manage dots in circles better than dots alone. I like my Vortex PST 1-4x for that reason. It has similar geometry in the reticle. I'm expecting to run the Vortex with a side mini-red dot since I currently shoot Open. As an update, I can save slightly more than one inch of length with a change of comp on my current upper. The Nordic Corvette that I have in my spare parts tray is shorter than what I have been using. MarkCO, thanks for all of that above. Much appreciated. Edited July 28, 2013 by michael1778 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 If you are interested, e-mail me on a prototype comp I have been running on my 16". As short as the Corvette, but lighter, quieter and more effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 I just put together an upper with a DD lightweight 16" 1:7 barrel, a 15.5" Nordic handguard on a BCM upper. Its stupid light without being all that expensive. Im gonna shoot it in the next week or so but I would imagine a setup like that would be more than accurate enough for a 250 yd and in gun. Probably more...Aaron, is that barrel mid-length gas? Thanks. What did you use for a gas block? It is a middy. I just used the factory lo pro gas block. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atvman400 Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Possibly look at Noveske. There 14.5's are mid length gas. I have just a chrome lined 14.5 and seems to be pretty accurate for a light gun and cheap Federal 55 fmj's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epault Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 16" mid for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 My Light contour 16" JP Barrel is awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted August 4, 2013 Author Share Posted August 4, 2013 My Light contour 16" JP Barrel is awesome! Thanks for stopping by, Jesse. Do you run 16" for certain types of match and longer barrels for other matches? Or have you tried to standardize on the 16"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whistlepig Posted August 4, 2013 Share Posted August 4, 2013 I vote for a light weight profile 16" barrel, based on your OP with mid length gas. Several are avail. On the gas block, the answer would depend on ammo. Do you always run a standard weight commercial loading? If so, go with a standard lo pro. If you vary loads and/or handload I vote adjustable. I just finished a new upper for games and I went with an 18" light weight profile SS free float with a non adjustable lo pro block and a small JP comp. It is shooting very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael1778 Posted August 5, 2013 Author Share Posted August 5, 2013 I vote for a light weight profile 16" barrel, based on your OP with mid length gas. Several are avail. On the gas block, the answer would depend on ammo. Do you always run a standard weight commercial loading? If so, go with a standard lo pro. If you vary loads and/or handload I vote adjustable. I just finished a new upper for games and I went with an 18" light weight profile SS free float with a non adjustable lo pro block and a small JP comp. It is shooting very well. Given the crazy ammunition market these days, I might be changing from one load to the next depending on what is available. I could reload in the future, but not currently. I have a Syrac adjustable block on an unused barrel right now, so I would probably use that on whichever direction I decide to go with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted August 5, 2013 Share Posted August 5, 2013 My Light contour 16" JP Barrel is awesome!Thanks for stopping by, Jesse. Do you run 16" for certain types of match and longer barrels for other matches? Or have you tried to standardize on the 16"? I built it for the CQB pro series but I only have 1000 rounds it. So I'm still not uses to/confident in the way the sights dance a little more than my 18". Right now it's a practice barrel. I plan to use it in November at the big 2 gun match in FL for its debut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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