kevin c Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 "...If a (metal plate) has been hit, but fails to fall or overturn, the RO shall declare REF and order ... (a) reshoot..." So, an edge hit that visibly wobbles but doesn't knock down a plate is not a miss, but is REF and grounds for a reshoot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Kevin, The respective rules (with differences highlighted) are: IPSC 4.3.1.6 Unlike IPSC Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. Therefore if a metal plate has been adequately hit but it fails to fall or overturn, a Range Officer may declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. USPSA 4.3.1.6 Unlike IPSC Poppers, metal plates are not subject to calibration or calibration challenges. If a metal target has been hit but fails to fall or overturn, the Range Officer shall declare range equipment failure and order the competitor to reshoot the course of fire, after the faulty plate has been rectified. Under the IPSC rule, inclusion of the word "adequately" means that a passing "wobbler" shot or a glancing edge hit would most likely not be grounds for a reshoot, however use of the word "may" gives the RO flexibility. On the other hand, to me (but subject to official confirmation), under the USPSA version a glancing edge hit shall result in a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Vince is correct. I'd like to see the word "target" changed to "plate", but the rule is clear. Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 If you look in Appendix D IPSC Plates, of the RED 14th Edition rule book, you will see a BLOCK in front of the plate and a note on the bottom about it. This block should stop the plate from TURNING and MAKE it fall. It does most of the time but not always. If the block is there and the plate turns it is clearly a REF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 If you look in Appendix D IPSC Plates, of the RED 14th Edition rule book, you will see a BLOCK in front of the plate and a note on the bottom about it. The same diagram survives as Appendix C3 (page 87 of the USPSA green rulebook). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I'll probably never see this again, but one shooter at AWARE 2003 spun a plate around 360 degrees, leaving it set up right the way it was before hitting it - a feat about as likley as a tossed coin landing on it's edge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I'll probably never see this again, but one shooter at AWARE 2003 spun a plate around 360 degrees, leaving it set up right the way it was before hitting it - a feat about as likley as a tossed coin landing on it's edge. Rob, Don't keep us in suspenders, er, I mean suspense. What was the call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrd Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 How about a steel plate that is used as an activator for a moving target, several times I have seen one turned on edge and not activate the mover? You see these quite a bit attached to a pole holding up a swinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 How about a steel plate that is used as an activator for a moving target, several times I have seen one turned on edge and not activate the mover? That would be Range Equipment Failure and a reshoot would be mandatory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Just want some clarifications since it's happened to me recently. If you shot a plate and it turns sideways will you stop? Or do you wait for the RO to say so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 mcoliver, since with the 2004 rulebook it's up to the RO to deem if the sideways turned target plate was properly hit, thus awarding a re-shoot, I'd have finished the COF, then asked the RO a re-shoot since the plate didn't fall. Of course, you'll never have the certainty of being awarded a re-shoot, it's up to the RO to take this decision upon his perception of the shot in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Just want some clarifications since it's happened to me recently.If you shot a plate and it turns sideways will you stop? Or do you wait for the RO to say so? Never Ever stop yourself even if you know it is a REF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Never Ever stop yourself even if you know it is a REF. (Replacing RO hat with competitor's hat) I agree. In fact, I've never called for a popper calibration, because I always assume that my first shot was either too low or, if I shot the popper fair 'n' square in the kisser but it failed to fall, I probably loosened whatever was preventing it from falling, and the calibration would not prove in my favour. Then again since I use fat yet hot (45ACP) bullets, poppers tend to fall over for me out of sheer fright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Vince, I tend to agree with you when it comes to poppers, but for plates (until the day we started to use Neil's design) I've personally witnessed at least one case in which a fairly good strike on a plate turned it totally sideways, edge-style. There was no chance the competitor could have hit a 1x20 cm section @ 12 meters in a fair amount of time. In this case, better leave the plate up and finish the COF, then start debating and arguing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Vince,I tend to agree with you when it comes to poppers, but for plates (until the day we started to use Neil's design) Luca Are you using these for HG as well? Are there any ricochet issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tri Burst Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 (Replacing RO hat with competitor's hat) I agree. In fact, I've never called for a popper calibration, because I always assume that my first shot was either too low or, if I shot the popper fair 'n' square in the kisser but it failed to fall, I probably loosened whatever was preventing it from falling, and the calibration would not prove in my favour. I still don't understand that RULE. Like you said more than likely the first shot loosened the popper and now the RO comes by and shoots it again of course it's going to fall. I think that rule should be changed to the RO inspects the popper and if it is found to be hung up the shooter get a reshoot. If it's found NOT to be hung up it is RESET COMPLETELY and then shot at with the test gun. The idea of never touching the popper is not the way the course of fire started and calibrating it after it has been shot at once and hit isn't the same as calibrating it from a fresh reset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Are you using these for HG as well? Are there any ricochet issues? Neil, it's been since ESC 2003 that in Uboldo's range (the one where I train) the plates done according to your design are in use. They've been shot with everything ranging from lead to plated and FMJ bullets, in all possible divisions. On this range there is an average of 4 league match per year, plus range members training weekly. Up to now there was no ricochet/shrapnel issue that I know of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Are you using these for HG as well? Are there any ricochet issues? Neil, it's been since ESC 2003 that in Uboldo's range (the one where I train) the plates done according to your design are in use. They've been shot with everything ranging from lead to plated and FMJ bullets, in all possible divisions. On this range there is an average of 4 league match per year, plus range members training weekly. Up to now there was no ricochet/shrapnel issue that I know of. I'm delighted to hear that, Luca. I would suspect that you now have no problems with plates. If you hit them they fall and if they're still standing you missed them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Since we started using them, I have never, ever, witnessed a single REF due to a plate that, upon hitting, didn't fall. Good design, Neil, really. Now if we only could upgrade to those appealing FF poppers... BTW, next time I go to the range I'll take a few picture of my cheap plate rack... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 I still don't understand that RULE. Like you said more than likely the first shot loosened the popper and now the RO comes by and shoots it again of course it's going to fall. I think that rule should be changed to the RO inspects the popper and if it is found to be hung up the shooter get a reshoot. Firstly we have no idea whether the first (and/or second) shot you fired had sufficient power to even make Minor. A popper failing to fall is not necessarily the result of a faulty mechanism - it could be underpowered ammo or a poorly placed shot. Secondly, as soon as the RO touches a genuinely faulty popper, his handling may imperceptibly or invisibly loosen whatever was preventing it from falling, so we're back to square one. This subject has been debated ad nauseum since Adam was still a virgin, but nobody has come up with a foolproof solution better than the one we have now. The best solution to date is using non-hinged poppers (those which sit loosely in a "V" channel at the base), and preferably poppers which fall forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Um guys, What exactly is Neil's design? Perhaps you could share it with the rest of us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Um guys,What exactly is Neil's design? Perhaps you could share it with the rest of us? I have previously posted a topic on the design HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 ad nauseum http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...ndpost&p=171555 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 Neil, Cool. We should consider including diagrams of your design in the next rulebook appendices in place of the "wooden block" design currently depicted. Apart from the reliability, I suspect yours are more durable, because you can't shoot the doo-doo out of the supports. Suggest you add it to your "To Do" list, as I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 You guys have me lost/confuse/drifted by talking about poppers on this thread. This thread is discussing 4.3.1.6, right? Which is a rule about plates, not poppers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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