Virginia Count, Extra Hit

[Jim Norman]

OK, You have three targets, one free standing and two targets that are touching, not over lapped. A competitor comes to the line, shoots and has one round that hits on the perf, outside the left target, but is also touching the perf from the outside on the right target.

No extra shots were fired.

The stage was one string and required only 12 rounds. Two on each, reload two on each. There are only 12 holes on the paper.

There are 4 holes in T1, there are three holes IN T2, one outside and touching the D, four holes in T3 and the one outside hit on T2 which is also touching the D Perf on T3.

What is the call here? For simplicity, lets say all the hits except the one in question are A hits. So do we have 11 Alpha, 1 Delta? Is there an extra hit on T3? How can there be if there is only the requisite number of shots fired and they are all accounted for on the 3 targets? Consider that the non-scoring border is .05cm which is about equal to 3/16". This being the case a .40 or .45 can easily "Score" on both targets.

Is there a rule to cover this?

Jim Norman

[Skywalker]

I guess the hit on the edge (touching both perfs of T2 and T3) should be considered an extra hit on T3, thus 11As (T1: 4A, T2: 3A, T3: 4A), 1D (T2), 1 procedural for extra hit on T3.

From IPSC Rulebook:

9.4.5 In a Virginia Count or Fixed Time Course of Fire:

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or penalty targets are not treated as Extra Hits.

If you count all scoring hits on the targets you have 13 in total (4, 4, 5), thus a procedural for extra hit on T3.

[mactiger]

It should be scored as 3 hits, one miss on T2, and the best 4 hits on T3, plus an extra hit.

OR, if the "D" hit also touches T2 and T3, then no miss penalty for T2, but still and extra hit penalty for T3.

If no extra shots were fired, then no penalty for extra shots. However, you should note that you can incur extra hit penalties without firing extra shots, as your example illustrates. If only 4 hits can score, then any extra hits are penalty hits.

Note that this doesn't apply to hardcover or penalty targets.

See US 9.4.4 in the current rules, and 9.4.5.2 in the new rules.

The problem arises when scoring targets are overlapped: you can incur a penalty (in fact, two) in the situation you describe, or can get credit for two hits with one shot, which should also be avoided. If the targets were separated by just a fraction of an inch, (or some hardcover or a no-shoot) then no extra hit penalty could be incurred without firing an extra shot, unless the competitor just fired at the wrong target or pulled one way off.

Troy

[Dead Buff]

4A - 3A, 1D - 4A, 1Proc (extra Hit) as per rules...you can have more hits than shots fired as explained above.

Lesson learned...put HC or PT or gap between targets for Vir Count

[Tri Burst]

It is a extra hit. Any shot that touches the scoring board of any target counts. There was a picture in front site of an aray of target that includes 2 overlapping no shoots with one target above it. One shot went in the V of the no shoots. The shooter got the hit on target and "2" no shoots with one bullet hole

[Skywalker]

There was a picture in front site of an aray of target that includes 2 overlapping no shoots with one target above it. One shot went in the V of the no shoots. The shooter got the hit on target and "2" no shoots with one bullet hole

Did they award a gold star for optimal targets placement too?

[Tri Burst]

There was a picture in front site of an aray of target that includes 2 overlapping no shoots with one target above it. One shot went in the V of the no shoots. The shooter got the hit on target and "2" no shoots with one bullet hole

Did they award a gold star for optimal targets placement too?

That's what the article or the letter was about. How NOT to setup an aray of targets. Although it is the shooters responsibility to hit the right targets and not the wrong ones.

[banjobart]

It was my understanding the the border around a USPSA target allows only one target or the other to receive a scoring hit when targets are placed edge to edge; not both targets.

In other words; the border is slightly wider than one half the diameter of a .45 caliber hit.

[Jim Norman]

The non-scoring border is 0.5cm or in inches 0.197" which would allow a .45 or even a .40 to score on both if the hit is perfectly placed in exactly the wrong place.

I have no problem with this being the call as long as it is understood by all.

When the targets overlap, that is an easy call. obviously the bullet is in both scoring areas. When it is essentially between the two targets and barely tangent to both is where the question arises.

A simple solution is to place a small space between the targets so that this cannot happen. Conversely the solution is to shoot better and keep the rounds within the scoring portion of the target.

Jim

[ivanhu]

When the targets overlap, that is an easy call. obviously the bullet is in both scoring areas. When it is essentially between the two targets and barely tangent to both is where the question arises.

Jim,

IMHO it's an easy call even in your case. The question is, would you score that bullet sign if it was the only single hit on that target? If the answer is yes, then you have to score it even if there are 11 (or pick any other number) other hits on the same target...

And by score, I mean the appropriate penalties, if that is the case.

[Tri Burst]

It was my understanding the the border around a USPSA target allows only one target or the other to receive a scoring hit when targets are placed edge to edge; not both targets.

In other words; the border is slightly wider than one half the diameter of a .45 caliber hit.

The no shoots were in a V shape with the shoot target inbetween them. And even it the no shoots were staight up edge to edge with a shoot target inbetween the heads of the no shoots you could still hit all thre with one shoot. The upper, shoulder area is at a angle and would form a V. I know I don't have that issue of front site anymore otherwise I'd post a pic of it.

[Jim Norman]

This situation very nearly arose Sunday, to me. I had an outside D hit that nearly hit the adjacent target. I was just a few thousanths clear of the second target. I would not have argued against the penalty if I had been assessed. I was interested in the consensus. Interestingly enough, I agree, Hit and penalty.

Now, what if I saw the hit and elected not to fire the 12th shot and the D had been a hit on both targets? 10 A 2 D? Pretty good for only 11 shots fired. But following the logic that I get the penalty, I'd assume I'd not get a penalty if I had the two hits with one round.

Far Fetched, but these things do happen.

Maybe I fired the 12th round, but missed clean would that change your assessment?

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Jim,

As mentioned, there are stage designs/target placements that can make this an issue.

Just score the hits on the paper.

Partial bullets are majic.

[shred]

Does EZWS do this correctly? I vaguely remember that it wouldn't give out Extra Hit penalties if there weren't also Extra Shots.

[Jim Norman]

Just for kicks I ran CM99-08, Melody Line which by the way was to course that started this discussion. EzWinScore WILL allow an extra hit without an extra shot.

The course description requires that the non-scoring borders be butted to each other. I contend that this presents an unfair COF, the NSB is 3/16" or .05cm which will allow a .38 super at 0.356 dia. to pass clean between the targets, but a .40 or a .45 can incur the extra hit penalty. Simply put an open shooter cannot get the extra hit in the situation I described while a limited shooter can. The solution is to change the set-up so that you either overlap the border so everyone has the chance to incur the penalty OR seperate the targets so that no one has the chance.

And you all need to know I am not complaining, just practicing for the USPSA Bar exam.

Jim