Cry Babies!

[PaulW]

I hate when a seasoned veteran of our sport does not get his way and huffs off and leaves the range after the first stage of fire.  We had a stage Saturday that you started with your toes on a painted line, at the signal you stepped into the box(two painted lines about 10 yrds apart) and shot targets as they became visible.  Well he does not step into the shooting area for his first two shots.  He gets 2 proceduals and argues that a shooting box has to have raised 2x2's to be legal.  The RO says that the 2 proceduals will stay unless the MD wants to change them.  He gets so mad that he takes off his gear and leaves for the day.  This is a game right?  It's suppose to be fun right?

[ErikW]

Yup, it's a game with rules. We show up expecting to play the game by the rules. When the rules are changed, it's a different game and we can choose not to play.

[38supPat]

I gotta agree with Erik. I can definitly see getting PO'd when the match director/range master/ro can't be bothered following the rules. They are there for a reason. And nobody likes to get screwed by a poor official. And before anyone says it, yes I know how much work it is to set up a match. I've set up hundreds of stages (no exaggeration, 2 to 3 a week for the better part of ten years, do the math) and theres no excuse for this. If officials can't be bothered getting off their lazy butt to lay down a 2x2 fault line. don't penalize the shooters for it. Otherwise you might as well throw out the whole rule book, you can't pick and choose which rules you'll follow depending on how energetic you feel setting up a course of fire. And don't invent new ones to cover your ass when you screw up, or can't be bothered. No 2x2 = no fault, period.

Had to vent that, thanx!

Pat

[PaulW]

Well certainly a different point of view than what I had.  First off is there such a rule regarding fault lines?  Second is it right to shoot it wrong and then use that rules as an excuse to why you should not get the procedual pentalties?  I mean one baby step and it would have been fine....he didn't move.  So ok, by the rules no pentalties, but a DQ for unsportsman like conduct, hey it's by the rules!

[38supPat]

Yes Virginia there is a fault line height rule

Ahhhh, yes the Unsportsmanlike rule. I always hear this used as a catch all phrase "if you don't do as I say I'll DQ you for unsportsmanlike conduct". Thats not what this rule is all about. If a shooter finds a way around the course of fire even taking penalties knowing its still worth it, then the course design was poor at best. We all miss something setting up courses of fire, we are human after all, if a shooter takes advantage of that..well thats what freestyle is all about. Remember it next time you set up a course of fire and move on. Sometimes you gotta take it like a man when someone points out a fault with a course of fire you designed. Its happened to anyone who has ever set one up. Don't let your ego be bruised just carry on. Unsportsmanlike conduct is if I stand there and call you a flying f****** idiot and question your parentage, and or threaten/attempt physical violence. No RO should have to put up with verbal or physical abuse. But just 'cuz you don't like how I solved your course is not the proper application of this rule.

Case in point. At the '97 or '98 AWARE match there was a field course where a small shooting area was connected to a large shooting area by a small bridge. The course of fire stipulated that all shots must be fired from within the fault lines. Most, if not all U.S. shooters being accustomed to being told exactly what to shoot from where and how to get there crossed the bridge (understand that I'm not slamming Americans here, just demonstrating a difference of philosophy regarding 'freestyle') While the Canadians figured out that the shortest, most direct route was to bypass the bridge and run straight past it from one area to the other. Welll that caused a bit of a ruckus as previous shooters thought it was unfair that we didn't use the bridge. But there was nothing in the course desription to make you use the bridge. Just move to the second area and once inside, engage targets as they become visible, and we did.  Life goes on.

Pat

(Edited by Pat Harrison at 1:01 pm on June 12, 2001)

[PaulW]

I did not set up the course so my ego is fine.  Thanks for the Virginia thing, I needed that.  I'll re-read the rule book tonight on fault lines.  Ok so there should have been raised fault lines....so-be-it.  the guy who set it up has learned somethig, as I have.  I myself am constanly trying to setup "ungamable" stages because people will try everything and anything in the book to find a way to shot it different or faster.  I get much more satisfaction out of shooting the stage the way it should be shot and seeing where my shooting skills are, not my cheating, I mean gaming skills are.  Yes I know, I know, I can hear it already.  No rule, accept maybe safety rules, is shielded from creative interpretation.

[38supPat]

Sorry I didn't mean to infer that it was you that set up or were at fault, I just get a bit p****d everytime I see or hear of a bad course being set up then the officials bitching about the competitors 'gaming it out'. Key tip-if you want to set up a course that can't be gamed..make it as simple as possible. Complex courses lead to interesting interpretations. A straight forward speed shoot or field course does not lend itself to gaming. The more 'funky' things you put in it, the more likely competitors will seek advantage. Remember that this game was developed to get shooters to search for better ways, that is why it is freestyle. Personnaly when I set up a course, I try to leave it as open as possible. I want to see the different ways to get through it, and then learn from it. The best courses are the ones where there are 10 or more different ways to shoot it and maybe 2 or 3 good ways. Otherwise lets all just shoot PPC or Action Pistol where all courses of fire are the exact same and dictated exactly what you will do with no creativity.

Watching a squad go through a stage with a half dozen different ways to shoot it is cool, its what IPSC is all about. If you want to be told exactly what to do, so that its 'fair', shoot IDPA.

I don't mean to be nasty but this is a dynamic, creative, fun sport. To restrict it puts it in the same class as all other shooting sports. Dull. I want my shooting skills tested, as well as my ability to dope out a stage. If I miss something, you beat me. That's life.

Pat

[PaulW]

Well said and understood........but I hate to tell you IDPA rules are 10X worse than IPSC.  I shot an IDPA match the other day where they had 2 steel plates right next to s steel no shoot.  Get this, if you shot the plate and only nicked it, shot the pole the plate stood on, they gave you a no-shoot pentalty.  They said it was because the R/O could not tell what you shot...oh and they refused to paint the steel after every shooter.  Now thats just F**kin Nuts!

[Duane Thomas]

Get this: I was at an IDPA match, about to shoot a stage that was not a "tactical simulation," just a simple speed shoot on open targets. I step up to the line and, with my hands empty, automatically put my hands up and "aim" at the first target to get my natural point of aim. The RO goes, "Ahhhh, none of that IPSC stuff. In IDPA we don't take sight pictures before we shoot."

EXCUSE me?

I called up IDPA High Command and talked to IDPA Board member John Sayle for clarification in this matter. Here was my thesis: in order to have a sight picture, you require two things, a front sight and a rear sight. Right? If you are holding your arms up without a gun in them, then you don't have a front and rear sight, you're not taking a sight picture. Right? Sayle replied, "There are some people out there who are very serious about following the rules, but they're not really sure what the rules are, they've got their own....interesting interpretations. Of COURSE holding your arms up without a gun in them isn't taking a sight picture. That's stupid. We thought when we wrote the rule book we'd made it so simple no one could possibly misunderstand it, but I guess we're going to have to get more specific."

Next time I'm at a match, same guy, same thing. I enjoyed telling him I'd got the word straight from IDPA High Command that I was in the right.

Moron.

[ErikW]

OK Pat you'll love this. I had a whole big rant on this on the previous board but it crashed soon after I posted it.

There's this swinging suspension bridge (plank hanging by chain) and the course description says, "Step on bridge and engage T1-T3." So I touched my foot to the top of the bridge while drawing, then engaged targets from elsewhere. RO gave me a procedural per shot. I asked for the CRO or RM and argued it didn't say "engage from bridge." They had a little pow-wow in my absence then came back with one procedural for having one foot on the ground while one foot was on the bridge. WTF!? They accepted that I didn't have to shoot from the bridge but wanted to ding me for a foot fault (which can only be earned while shooting).

[38supPat]

Amazing what they'll come up with to cover their asses eh?

Pat

[Ron Ankeny]

Rule 2.2.1.3 reads, "Charge and fault lines SHOULD be constructed of wooden boards or other suitable material and SHOULD extend no more than five centimeters above ground level."  For what it's worth, the rules don't say shall or must. I don't agree with the idea of spray painting a fault line, and I would (and have) said so during a walk through.

Section 11 of the rulebook is devoted to Arbitration and Interpretation of Rules and there is a procedure in place to resolve disputes Seems darned odd that a seasoned shooter would ignore one section of the rulebook by storming off while complaining about another.

I would think a better approach would be to try to determine why the match director was disregarding USPSA recommendations and maybe try to get them to take a more professional and serious approach to course construction. Then again, what the hell do I know? I am still relatively new to the sport and in my igrorant bliss I think that I have an obligation to help to improve our lot.

[PaulW]

Hate to start bashing IDPA, but at last years Florida State Match, 5 of the 6 stage where not legal stages.  And it did not happen but I was waiting for a malfunction on this surprise stage they had.  That would have been interesting to see how they would have handled that.  Some of the same guys ran a single stack match.  One shooter elected not to carry this book that you were suppose to carry for about 20 yards and you had to shoot targets before you got to the table to set the book down.  The range master (idpaer) gives the guy 1 procedual.  Well I say Sh*t, thats a huge advantage and burn the stage down without the book.  Now everyone thats has shot it starts complaining.  We are given 2 choices, either re-shoot the stage or they are going to throw the stage out.  We re-shoot, and of course I blew it.  Crazy!

[38supPat]

Course designers are rarely top shooters so they don't know what to expect. They then set up a course to 'mess' with shooters minds. Unfortunatly the top guys minds are harder to mess with and they figure out the best way to deal with the problem, do it, then leave everyone else behind.

A simple solution is to build stages more like we do up here, we try to avoid fault and charge lines instead we put up physical barriers. This doesn't have to mean a wall. it can be a fence line or ribbon tied to posts. Easy to see and hard to fault and fairly simple to set up.

Pat

[Ron Ankeny]

Pat:

Now I am confused. I have several rolls of Fire Line barrier tape, you know, the wide tape that says "Fire Line Do Not Cross". I have suggested using the tape tied between barrels or perhaps between tires or stakes and some of the guys felt like it would become a trip hazard. What do you think? Go with the tape anyway??

[Rich Bagoly]

We do this with yellow polly rope all the time.  Tie it to stakes between 2 and 3 feet high.  You want it low enough so it does not get shot.  

[38supPat]

Yeah I like to put it at waist height (for average people) its not a trip hazard but it definately makes a barrier. Cation though, it is flexible, so make sure the stage isn't affected if someone runs into it and stretches it past the intended location to gain better angle on something. I prfer to use 2x2 on top of barrels or other objects of similar height that it can be fixed to.

Pat