2013 G3G Practical Shotgun Challenge July 6-7 at The World Shooting Co

[Jesse Tischauser]

Here is the math for the charcoal stage.

Gateway Shotgun Scores.pdf

[JTMaddox]

The score is based on adjusted time.

the winner(s) in limited have 14 hits giving them an adjusted time of 16.00 seconds. a shooter with 10 hits has an adjusted time of 20 seconds. 16/20=.8 multiplied by maximum stage points of 50 = 40

[Jesse Tischauser]

I understand the math you're using but I don't understand the logic.

[JTMaddox]

Edited July 9, 2013 by JTMaddox

[JTMaddox]

Correction for scoring method on Clay stages have been made. No changes to any actual scores or stages will be made. Results stand as posted. Again, I sincerely apologize for the confusion and the situation created by the scoring issue. We have tried to be as fair as we possibly can and we hope that everyone understands.

https://practiscore.com/match-results/uuid?uuid=2D96D57A-88E6-432F-A3F6-A3557BC59696

You may need to refresh your browser to see the updated results.

[JoeBoboutfitters]

Correction for scoring method on Clay stages have been made. No changes to any actual scores or stages will be made. Results stand as posted. Again, I sincerely apologize for the confusion and the situation created by the scoring issue. We have tried to be as fair as we possibly can and we hope that everyone understands.

https://practiscore.com/match-results/uuid?uuid=2D96D57A-88E6-432F-A3F6-A3557BC59696

You may need to refresh your browser to see the updated results.

Perhaps I don't quite understand how the aerial targets were scored originally, and how they are scored now. I'm by no means an expert on the scoring algorithims and complexities. They appeared to have been originally scored exactly as they were stated in the booklet, correct?

Now the aerial targets appear to be scored very weird?

IE: I shot a 24/25 in Skeet with a pump. I set the curve on skeet and received 125 stage points. However, someone who shot a 12/25 would get roughly 85 stage points, with half of the targets hit out of the total targets presented.

Does this make any sense at all? Previously they were weighted just like any other stage. If you missed the target, you got a penalty. I shot the "Duck Blind" stage well, and hit all the aerial targets. Had I missed any of the aerials I would have been penalized, just like the original aerial target scores that were posted.

It appears the original way of scoring aerial targets was in line with every other scoring method. Now it appears to be "changed" to appease particular shooters, but I could be completely wrong.

Trap, Skeet, and Sporting Clays are very popular shotgun games. Aerial targets are what the shotgun was designed for, and thus why they were thrown in the mix on a "Practical" shotgun competition. Good shooters should be able to shoot clay targets flipped up by a steel target the same as a skeet target. In fact, trap and skeet targets are very consistent compared to how poppers throw up clays randomly, so they should be considerably easier to master for a beginner, let alone a Pro. Scores at registered trap and skeet tournaments are very boring, as there are many perfect scores. You don't see that in any other shooting disciplines that I've ever seen.

What was the reasoning for treating aerial targets on some events differently from every other event? There was no "time" on trap, skeet, or Sporting Clays...so how can a time be assigned after the fact? The scores written on the score-card were simply a dead or lost target. All of a sudden there is very minimal penalty for missing targets which was not the way it was spelled out in the booklet. Stage 4 IIRC was thrown out because of inconsistent aerial targets. All of those aerial targets gave a penalty, if missed. All of the skeet, sporting, and trap targets were identical.

The charcoal stage had no set number of targets, but was timed. Only hits were counted. The clay target games had a set number of targets, the same as every other stage in the event. There was no way to shoot additional clay targets if you had "extra time" as if you were shooting charcoals under the clock. I sucked on the charcoal stage (only 4 hits), but I still got 68% of the match points compared to Jansen who shot 12, who also shot a pump. That seems off? I would think I should, logically, get substantially less match points.

Scores from Squad 10 (as was mentioned previously) were wrong on the Slugfest. We had instructions on this COF to shoot (1) A zone or (2) anywhere. Those instructions caused our squad's times to be substantially longer. Even Rustin (who shot very fast compared to most on our squad) was incredibly slow compared to the rest of the Pro pack due to not having a static RO present at that stage.

IMO: As a match director, I'd be more concerned with fixing the major score discrepencies caused by inconsistencies due to not providing static RO's than I would be with changing the way targets are scored for different events. This is especially true AFTER the scores were in the books and arbitration was over. Consistencies in scoring will likely keep previous shooters and sponsors coming back for future events, as well as increase the chances of potential future attendees and sponsors.

Edited July 10, 2013 by JoeBoboutfitters

[EaZeNuTZ33]

No matter how you try to score it...someone isn't going to be happy about it.

Personally, since trap/skeet/sporting clays did not have time restraints I felt the percentages and points should be based solely upon how many the best shooter hit. So if the best guys hit 24/25 and I hit 12/25.....I would be within 50% of their score and receive 50% of possible stage points. I know the charcoal stage had a time restraint, but thought it easier and that it would make more sense to score it based upon the number hit....so if someone hit 14 to win, and another hit 7...the person who hit 7 could receive 50% of stage points. To me that seems more in line than to assess time penalties on a stage that had no par time or scored times for any shooter.

As for Stages 4 being thrown out, I can imagine for a Match Director that's a tough call to make, especially after spending the time and money to buy the targets, design the stage, and put it together. For stage 4, at the matches I've been to, if a clay comes up broken and you shoot in its direction...you get it! While I like the popper/flipper parts in stages, they can be prone to breaking clays when they toss them up. My squad did not get to shoot stage 4, I wish we would have now, even if the scores were thrown out. As for stage 10, we ran with one hit with a slug on each target, which is how I remembered one stage out of the twenty I had to RO, was to be run. I can definitely see a massive change in scores if it is run with some having to score two hits, while another squad only has to score a single hit.

When all of us RO's went through the stage briefings, we went through specific rules on stage starts, hits required, how/when things can be shot, when targets could be painted...for twenty stages... apparently some did not hear things the same way or forgot everything for all twenty stages, as it seemed some things changed by the time my squad got to a stage, and some things changed after my squad had already shot a stage. Some RO's allowed shooters to change when steel was painted, stages were thrown out, and people had to reshoot stages. Consistency WOULD be improved with static RO's, especially static RO's that are strong and strict about the stage rules. I don't think anyone can argue that. The difficulty is going to be finding 20 RO's willing to RO the match, most likely without being allowed to shoot it if the match is at that particular range.

Being the first year for this match, there will be learning experiences that lead to a better match next year. I know Jeremy and Aaron busted their butts to put one fun match on, Kevin Stewart (Gateway 3-Gun team member) put in a lot of time, money, and effort into welding up all those 6x6 flip up targets that made things so easy to reset some of the stages, and I know there were a lot of us RO's that put some extra time in to try to make it a good match. There were 20 great stages setup, and as it sometimes happens, stages don't run as seamlessly as expected. The scoring didn't go well, and with skeet/trap/sporting clays (IMO) was unfairly punishing to those that didn't win the stage or come VERY close to winning it, but when changed it made some other shooters upset about what the way it was scored. I personally think the best way to score those stages, and IMO the charcoal stage, was to score it like I wrote above in this post....I understand that some may disagree with that.

I can't wait until this match comes next year! I have confidence that Aaron and Jeremy will have these first year glitches figured out and ready to run the 2nd Annual Gateway Shotgun Challenge alot smoother.

I know that I'm noone important and my opinion is worth what I'm charging you for it, but here would be MY recommendations for next year...

1. Score trap/skeet/sporting clays/charcoal purely upon the number of hits or percentage figured from hits/possible and percentage based upon the class leader with points based upon percentages.

2. Skeet and Trap could potentially all be shot at the same time with all squads....that place had enough bays to run 5x the number of shooter we had! The number of bays allowed was more than sufficient as is, but skeet/trap/clays could all be shot by all groups on Sunday as finals stages on Sunday.

2. On all stage descriptions, include how the stage will be scored, and rigidly stick to it.

3. On all stage descriptions, include instructions clear enough that any shooter could be an RO. Don't leave room for people to decide if they can start standing/sitting/prone/port-arms/low-ready...or state the shooter can start however they like.

4. On stage descriptions, include if steel can be painted every shooter or between squads only, include that barrels have to be back on painted circles before starting,...small details.

5. If possible, find enough volunteers for each stage to work as RO's that are stuck to their stage for the match.

6. Consider having everyone shoot stages 1-12 Saturday, and all shooters shoot stages 13-20 on Sunday, so that you could cut the required number of RO's in half without sacrificing consistency on stages.

7. Offer a vendor the chance to charge for cold pop/water and warm food near the stages from 11am-1pm for lunches, more if they want.

8. Make the long stages as far apart from each other as possible, regardless of what stage you start on. skeet and trap were fine together with all the bays, but the jungle run and running through the field huffing and puffing should have been 5-10 stages apart.

Again, I'm already looking forward to next year's match and I hope noone is discouraged!

[urikagold]

Also looking forward to next year.

Edited July 11, 2013 by urikagold

[Chills1994]

EaZeNutz33 wrote:

...The difficulty is going to be finding 20 RO's willing to RO the match, most likely without being allowed to shoot it if the match is at that particular range.

The easy solution to that is drop the match to 10 stages overall, or how many stages you can fit in a day. Have the 10 dedicated RO's (and possibly 10 dedicated scorekeepers) shoot all 10 stages on Saturday. Then have them run the rest of shooters through on Sunday.

As for Stages 4 being thrown out,

That's a bummer.

And now.... my next comments are going to ruffle some feathers I am sure, but in my opinion, it looks bad in the YouTube videos when an RO is wearing Team X jersey, and the shooter he is timing and scoring is also wearing Team X jersey. Especially at a major match. I am NOT saying anything hinky happened, buttttt.... just the appearances that an RO would have motivation to be partial is enough to get people talking.

[Jesse Tischauser]

The 24 stage Pan American shotgun match didn't have 48 or even 24 RO's. They setup the schedule in zones.

Zone A - Stages 1-6

Zone B - Stages 7-12

Zone C - stages 13-18

Zone D - stages 19-24

You take 12 CRO's and if possible 12 RO's or scorekeeper a and put a pair of them on Stages 1-12 on day one and each pair stays put on their stage all day. Day 2 they move to a new stage and stay there all day.

I'm sure a bunch of folks heard someone was injured while not wearing safety glasses on stage 4 which is why it was thrown out. I hate rumors and more so not knowing all the details surrounding stuff like this so here is my first hand account of what happened. A shooters girlfriend was asked to activate the poppers during walk through so every shooter could see the flippers each popper activated. She knocked over 8/9 poppers without incident. When she pushed over the last popper the clay on the flipper shattered and hit her in the face around her eye. She was not wearing safety glasses because we were not shooting. If she had been wearing safety glasses it may have lessened the injury a little but most of the injury wasn't to the eye it was to the face. So lesson learned always always always wear safety glasses on the range and don't face towards a clay flipper as you activate it even if your wearing safety glasses.

The stage was thrown out after the RM watched 2 or 3 of our shooters shoot it. I think those first shooters were lucky if they got to shoot at 1/2 of the clay birds because they kept coming out broken.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I hadn't heard about anyone getting injured, only that clays were coming up broken on Stage 4.

I think the way Jesse is laying out the the Zoned stages may be the best route to go. Everyone runs zones A & B on Day one, then Zones C & D on Day two. RO's stay with their stage, then RO a different stage on day two that they stay with. The problem still exists with having RO's who don't shoot, or trying to get everyone through early enough for the RO's to shoot those stages in the late afternoon after everyone finishes. I just can't imagine leaving stages set up for a week after an RO shoot without them getting moved, tampered with, other disciplines needing to shoot on the same bays,......the range appears to be a massive undertaking and I can imagine it being a very popular place to go.

Reducing from 20 to 10 stages may make the match easier to run, but I start to lose interest in next year if it's 10 stages......and I'm guessing a lot of other people would do the same. With 20 stages and the price for the match, I thought everyone was getting enough shooting for their money. I could see a compromise down to 15-18 stages, and making the match have 2-3 more LONG stages with high round counts, but simple to reset clays and steel targets like Kevin made for this match that just have to be flipped back up.

As for guys with the same jersey RO'ing each other. If it's the Gateway 3-Gun team members, that is going to be hard to avoid, since ALL of them were RO'ing the match. If there was an RO match the weekend before (or somehow crammed into Friday), they would still have been RO'ing each other....but wouldn't have had the other shooters there to help keep them honest. I know that everyone HAS to know that the RO's police themselves in RO matches at big matches....we did it when I RO'd the MW3G last year, and know others did the same at the big matches they RO'd. That's nothing new.

If it was another set of jerseys, I couldn't be sure as to how that happened, but did hear of some pushier shooters essentially taking over a squad who had a quieter RO who was non-confrontational, and was able to bend some rules that other squads didn't (i.e. when targets are painted, changing the start position,...). These things make small to large differences on fast stages like stage 1 and stage 7. I didn't see this personally, and do not know those particular shooters or the RO well, so I'm not going to point fingers as to who a RUMOR was about.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Typically during the RO shoot the day or two before the match the RM and MD are present to address any potential issues that are found so that the main match has zero discrepancies. They can also fix things like 180 traps bad target presentation and such.

I would never suggest anyone of us would purposely cheat when ROing a buddy. What does happen is how all of the odd occurrences such as do you shoot a broken bird or is it considered a hit if its broken or do you engage a plate that's flopped with another plate in a plate rack and stuff like that. Also those tricky start positions like the toes on the board get interpreted different by different RO's.

It was clear that most of the problems we saw at this match was that it needed more volunteers to help make it go smoothly.

So have I decided that I would make it know here that I will work as a CRO, RO, MD, RM or whatever next year to help make sure the biggest baddest shotgun match at the biggest shotgun range in the country is held again in 2014.

Who's with me?

Edited July 11, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[EaZeNuTZ33]

RO'd this year...will RO next year to help out as well.

[Brian Payne]

Jesse,

It is easy as a competitor to sit back after a match and voice opinions as to how the match should have been made better, but for a competitor to step forward and volunteer to be an MD, RM, RO, stats keeper, or what have you is showing an attitude that I like to see. Good job.

[Chills1994]

I would go shoot a 10 stage practical shotgun match if 3 of the stages weren't a round of trap, a round of skeet, or a round of sporting clays. Why travel 200 to 1,900 miles away when there are at least 6 different places within a 60 mile radius from home where I could do that? It would also make the scoring easier and there wouldn't be any SNAFU's. Everything would be time plus. With 10 stages, I would also surmise a corresponding drop in the match entry fee would be in order.

I'm curious about the clays that were breaking on stage 4. Were these clays provided by the shooting complex? Or were they bought brand new by Gateway 3 Gun? When I put on a 3 gun match out there, I took one look at the clays the shooting complex was willing to give to the "club" and opted to go to wally world and bought about 5 cases out of my own pocket.

As far as the shooting complex being the best, you can thank the Illinois taxpayer for that.

[Jesse Tischauser]

I liked the clays cause I had the Joe Bob trap team and Pat Kelley coaching me to near perfect scores but I agree we could use those throwers to in our typical format of run and gun to be more fun. It is very doable to shoot 10-14 stages in two days with the right mix of round count. 8 stages on Saturday and 4-6 stages on Sunday with Friday as an option for shooters that can't stay all weekend.

[EaZeNuTZ33]

I liked the clays as well. I had never shot skeet or sporting clays and thought they were a good test of shotgun skills that I may need to work on.

I've had brand new clays that seemed to break constantly out of my thrower when the next box didn't have a single one break, and I've had old clays that came out of my grandfathers basement that had white tops and only seemed to break with good hits on them. The brand new box of white flyers I picked up from WalMart last night didn't fair so hot on my MGM flippers last night. Clays broke about 25%-30% of the time it seemed.

[Chills1994]

You have your own MGM flippers? I'm impressed!

[EaZeNuTZ33]

You have your own MGM flippers? I'm impressed!

I thought I was catching up to the curve. Last years purchases were 15-20 knockdown targets, a texas star, a plate rack, and a spinner. This year has been MGM auto-poppers, MGM poppers and MGM flippers, and 20 more knockdown steel plates.

[Chills1994]

For club use?

Or are you shooting on your own backyard range?

[EaZeNuTZ33]

For club use?

Or are you shooting on your own backyard range?

Private range behind the house on the farm. Range can stretch to almost 400 yards, but you're shooting downhill a little if past 120 or so yards. It's only about 50-60 yards wide and 120 yards long for the flat part of the range at the bottom of the hill. Pistol/Rifle can be shot straight on or to the right, birdshot it any direction.

Jeremy and Gateway teammates have had an open invite to come practice on the range and go with me to eat the best BBQ they will have (Wabash BBQ is only 5-10 minutes away).

Edited July 11, 2013 by EaZeNuTZ33

[chidiver]

For club use?

Or are you shooting on your own backyard range?

Probably sets them up in the parking lot of his office for some lunchtime stress relief ;-)

I wound up on the Nook the whole weekend and went through the RO briefing. It was a bit of a memory test (though I took notes) but I was still surprised at some of the issues (slug scoring, starts, etc.).

I liked the skeet, trap, SC part. How else to have a FULL test of shotgun skills? I also agree that we should be able to spread out and ALL finish on those skills. Our squad ended on those stages and I was very thankful to not have to run around on Sunday afternoon. Just get some more teenagers to score and throw.

Also, can we borrow and integrate 1 or 2 programmable throwers into a stage with static steel? Might be fun.

Lastly, a few of us had some fun on Stage 4 on Sunday afternoon just running the poppers...virginia count..9 shells only. Speed vs FTN....Fun.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[Tactica]

I helped set up for two days the week before. My wife assited with registration Friday night and Sat morning from 6-? I RO'd a squad and my wife again graciously helped out with squad mom duties for two days while we shot. I live just over an hour away from the range so we made that drive multiple times that week and weekend. Only today, the Thursday after the match is over, do I start to feel less than sore! However, for the opportunity to shoot this match again, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to throw my hat in the ring and help out so all of us can shoot this match again next year.

Jesse's right. This match is that fun.

I have full confidence in Jeremy and Aaron. They will get the 1st year bugs worked out. I've had the pleasure of shooting many of their local monthly regional 3-gun matches. These guys do a great job and and are setting a bar worthy of the Sparta World Shooting Complex's name to live up to.

I'm already looking forward to their next major event.

I'm happy to do whatever I can for them.

Cheers,

Rob Malin

Edited July 11, 2013 by Tactica

[Jesse Tischauser]

As for the clay sports even though I like them you can pay $20-30 and shoot them any day of the week. You can't shoot the other 17 stages anywhere other than at a match such as this. That's why people come.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[Chills1994]

My one local club just charges $3 for a round of skeet or trap. They provide the clay birds. And in actuality it's considered a donation and is done on the honor system.

Were any of the competitors made aware that trap, skeet, and SC were going to be included in the overall match prior to submitting their match "app" and fee?

Could you switch guns for those three events, or barrel lengths, or even just chokes?

Hi, Rob!