Firebird Precision Akdal MKA 1919 Ammo Testing

[Tactica]

Hey all,

I picked up an Akdal from Centerfire systems then had Firebird Precision give it a work-over. I received it last week and so far so good. Jim and his team did a great job and turned it around pretty quick. I'm hoping to run this thing in my first 3-gun match in Nov. However, I needed to find some reliably running ammo.

I've had some luck for Birdshot and Buckshot. Still working on slugs, but have picked up a few more varieties to test - including some B&Ps.

I put a little over 100 rounds through it in each video. However, I used decent variety of rounds. I provide a summary of what did and did not run at the end of each vid if you want to skip the testing and get to the info. If you do watch the videos, you will find a trend in both. Softer shells that you can compress with your fingers will cause feeding issues. However, smooth hulls that are harder and cannot be compressed in the fingers tend to run more reliably.

Day 1 testing

Day 2 testing

Figured I'd share the vids and see if anyone else found anything helpful. Feedback welcome of course.

Cheers,

[Alaskapopo]

Try some Fiochi slugs they are very soft and should run well in your AKDAL.

Pat

[gose]

I run AAs for bird, Fiocchi for slugs and Federal LE buckshot and I'm getting really close to 100% reliability now.

[RiggerJJ]

Fiochi slugs/buckshot/spreaders have soft hulls, been my experience the Akdal doesn't like them, espcially in warm weather when the hulls get even softer...

My best experiences for ammo in a Firebird 1919, (I have tried alot of ammo!)

Win AA 1oz 1200fps heavy tgt loads

Remmington 1200fps low recoil 1oz slugs

Remmington 1200fps low recoil 1oz 00 buckshot

Ran this gun without incident in 2 majors with this ammo; the ProAm, and FB3G. The Firebird ramp modification pretty much eliminates nose dives and that sort of jam. Been a joy to finally run a Open box mag shotgun that just goes and goes! Thanks Firebird!!!

JJ

ps; those of you who saw me shoot it at Texas; the ammo I had there was THE WRONG AMMO and I have had the ramp mod done since as well.

Edited October 23, 2012 by RiggerJJ

[gose]

Remmington 1200fps low recoil 1oz slugs

What kind of accuracy are you getting out of those slugs?

Edited October 23, 2012 by gose

[RiggerJJ]

Off hand at 50 yards I could cover the group with my fist. Good enough for me!

JJ

[Tactica]

RiggerJJ,

Thanks for the feedback,

I assume you are talking about the new FP custom aluminum ramp installed? Last week, Jim said they are cutting new ramps right now. Availability is probably 4 weeks out yet from being completed. Sounds like maybe you got in on the early testing or prototype run? I've already told Jim I wanted him to do my ramp as soon as the new parts are ready. Sounds like they just grind out the old, fit the new, add a couple pins and screw to hold it in place.

If this is what they did for you, how long did it take them to turn it around and get it back to you?

All,

This gun is very new to me still. The above two vids from last weekend are the only rounds I have through it and I just took possession of it last week! I have a few other questions too for you guys that have the FP Fully Custom Akdal and are running it successfully in competition... I'm also new to 3-gun, so sorry if any of these questions are too newbish or just plain dumb... I'm still learning here:

1. How often (round count) are you guys breaking down to clean bolt, carrier and barrel?

2. Are you installing any additional 3rd party products to the gun beyond what FP has done for open division? Like a poly choke, larger than 10-rnd mag, factory bolt handle, addition to FP non-recipricating charging handle... bipod... etc?

3. What kind of anti-carb / cleaning products are you using on the bolt and carrier. I've been having very good success with FireClean as it seems to just eliminate carbon build up.

4. I have a 45 round capacity with my mag setup. That is two FP 10-rnd mags, 1 FP coupled set of 10-rnd mags, and 1 5-rnd factory mag. What kind of mag pouches / rig system are you guys using for this thing?

5. Did anyone have to loctite the saftey selector screw... or any other screws? I noticed my safety selector started getting loose due to the screw on the left side starting to back out. Just screwed it back in, however, the factory 5mm hex head screw holding on the adapter under the buttstock also was loose after 250 rounds so broke it down and secured that as well. Both could just be attributed to new build and first rounds breaking the gun in, but curious if I needed to be aware of any extra care...

6. Are there any common buffing, tuning, sanding or other tweaks being done to ensure these things are running the best they can in competition?

7. When you zero the dot for a shotgun, are you zero'ing based on the birdshot, the buckshot or what I assume is... the slug.

8. What is a good range to zero for the slug?

Very happy to find others shooting this thing in Open, I love the gun and the work Jim over at Firebird Precision has done for me!

Thanks all,

Edited October 24, 2012 by Tactica

[nipplehead]

I have one of the first 25 FB guns..I do have the new gas sytem, but none of the new springs..in the mags or recoil. I never needed to try many differant ammos as I simply ran the gun..First time out was bad..it did run reduced recoil slugs remmington..and STS light target loads 1145 FPS 2 3/4 dram EQ. I took the gun down and discovered metal shavings in the receiver..the top of the bolt had sharp edges and was cuttinginto the top of the reciever..I believe running the slugs through it helped it dig clearances...any way smoothed out all those areas .

Next I noticed the action arms were very rough..the bottom of one had machine marks akin to a hacksaw blade..smooth and polished all those rough spots...now when you move the action it feels like butter,,,also run the gun wet..it likes lots of lube.

Next time out i still had hangups not many..but all in the same place..the notch in the barrel where the extractor resides had sharp edges..I smoothed all the edges in the chamber area..have not had a single jam since.

One problem some FB owners have is self inflicted..understand that Jims new Gas system is very efficient..designed to shoot light loads, yet I see all these guys having trouble cause they insist on shooting heavy target loads..Its beating up the gun and the bolt is out running the mag springs. My gun runs 100% on light target loads STS preferably..I reload these hulls with a 1oz 2 3/4 dram EQ load which travels 1200FPS. But that is basically the same dram EQ of the STS light target load 1 1/8 1145 FPS factory load. My gun will run RIO trap 28 load aswell another 1oz 1200FPS load. I firmly believe shooting anything over 1200 FPS with the new gas system is a mistake(any load over 1 1/8 )

Furthermore the gun is not a soft shooter for a semi..why beat yourself up?

[gose]

RiggerJJ,

Thanks for the feedback,

I assume you are talking about the new FP custom aluminum ramp installed? Last week, Jim said they are cutting new ramps right now. Availability is probably 4 weeks out yet from being completed. Sounds like maybe you got in on the early testing or prototype run? I've already told Jim I wanted him to do my ramp as soon as the new parts are ready. Sounds like they just grind out the old, fit the new, add a couple pins and screw to hold it in place.

If this is what they did for you, how long did it take them to turn it around and get it back to you?

All,

This gun is very new to me still. The above two vids from last weekend are the only rounds I have through it and I just took possession of it last week! I have a few other questions too for you guys that have the FP Fully Custom Akdal and are running it successfully in competition... I'm also new to 3-gun, so sorry if any of these questions are too newbish or just plain dumb... I'm still learning here:

1. How often (round count) are you guys breaking down to clean bolt, carrier and barrel?

2. Are you installing any additional 3rd party products to the gun beyond what FP has done for open division? Like a poly choke, larger than 10-rnd mag, factory bolt handle, addition to FP non-recipricating charging handle... bipod... etc?

3. What kind of anti-carb / cleaning products are you using on the bolt and carrier. I've been having very good success with FireClean as it seems to just eliminate carbon build up.

4. I have a 45 round capacity with my mag setup. That is two FP 10-rnd mags, 1 FP coupled set of 10-rnd mags, and 1 5-rnd factory mag. What kind of mag pouches / rig system are you guys using for this thing?

5. Did anyone have to loctite the saftey selector screw... or any other screws? I noticed my safety selector started getting loose due to the screw on the left side starting to back out. Just screwed it back in, however, the factory 5mm hex head screw holding on the adapter under the buttstock also was loose after 250 rounds so broke it down and secured that as well. Both could just be attributed to new build and first rounds breaking the gun in, but curious if I needed to be aware of any extra care...

6. Are there any common buffing, tuning, sanding or other tweaks being done to ensure these things are running the best they can in competition?

7. When you zero the dot for a shotgun, are you zero'ing based on the birdshot, the buckshot or what I assume is... the slug.

8. What is a good range to zero for the slug?

Very happy to find others shooting this thing in Open, I love the gun and the work Jim over at Firebird Precision has done for me!

Thanks all,

1. 300-500 rounds. Ill add a little oil in between though.

2. Nope

3. CLP

4. M1A belt pouches for 5 rounders, 3gungear .308 t-rig for gen 1 mags, unknown molle radio pouch for gen 2 mags.

5. I think I put loctite on every single screw on mine.. they'll all come loose with time if you dont

6. I polished some rough edges on my bolt, but that was all I did after I got it from Jim

7/8 I like a 75y slug zero. That will get you a couple inches high at 50 and 5-10" low at 100, depending on ammo

[Tactica]

Excellent feedback gents, thank you!

nipplehead: I'm running heavy target load birdshot, 3 DRAM equivilent to break gun in only... After that, it will all light loads. I'm already getting some metal shaving and build up in the carrier that is externally visible but it's still running. I want to put one more 100 round lot through it before I break it down, inspect and clean it up real good.

Again, thanks for the feedback. I'll be putting it all to good use.

Cheers,

[Tactica]

Gun was really dirty, after 300 rounds through it and only initial lubrication on the carrier. I just broke it down last night and got it good and cleaned up... that said, before cleaning I ran a few more rounds through it last night and tried two other slug types. First was a box of birdshot I had to burn which was really soft hulls and cheap stuff, but it all works to break in the gun. Just some soft shooting target loads.

I tried Winchester 16 pellet buck shot, that did not have a FPS or DRAM eq labeled on it - ended up being way too hot, and 2/5 shells hung up, so put that aside and didn't run anymore.

I also tried B&P low recoil slugs that I got from a friend. I only had 13 to try, but 11 / 13 fed without issue. The two that did not feed both caught on the top right side of the shell again. These hulls were not soft at all, so it was a suprise to see these hang up like the soft shells had done. Like I said, the gun had 300 rounds through it and was really dirty, so... I can blame it on that I guess. However, I thought they would have ran flawlessly.

The good news is the B&P slugs have ran the best of anything I've tried. So, for my upcoming Nov match, that's what I'll go with. Hopefully after a deep cleaning, they run better.

Cheers,

[Tactica]

Jim said that putting some amount of sanding on the edge of the barrel by the extractor gap in the breach improves feeding. He described a champfering of the corders by the extractor gap. I have not done it yet, but took some photos of the area he's describing. Wondering if anyone else has done it to theirs, or had Jim do the sanding? I just don't want to screw it up... Here's what mine looks like right now:

Edited October 29, 2012 by Tactica

[nipplehead]

Jim said that putting some amount of sanding on the edge of the barrel by the extractor gap in the breach improves feeding. He described a champfering of the corders by the extractor gap. I have not done it yet, but took some photos of the area he's describing. Wondering if anyone else has done it to theirs, or had Jim do the sanding? I just don't want to screw it up... Here's what mine looks like right now:

did you read my post?

"Next time out i still had hangups not many..but all in the same place..the notch in the barrel where the extractor resides had sharp edges..I smoothed all the edges in the chamber area..have not had a single jam since."

[Tactica]

nipplehead, LOL - sorry borther. Wasn't ignoring your post, was reading the 'rounding of edges' and what Jim described as 'champfering the corners' as perhaps two different resulting processes, but perhaps not and I was over thinking it.

Any chance you could take a photo and post here what you did to your barrel breach around the extractor notch?

I've not sanded on a barrel before, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Always better to see what someone else did that is working.

If not, no worries. I think I know what I'm after now.

Cheers,

Edited October 29, 2012 by Tactica

[Tactica]

RiggerJJ sent me some photo of what he did on the breach of his barrel - though he states he may have taken it a bit far, but also reports that it runs flawlessly - pic attached below.

Thanks for the photo - very helpful to me.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Tactica

[RiggerJJ]

Some qualifiers;

Comparing my photo directly above to Tactica's, (4 posts above)I may have removed a bit too much material from the inner edge, so grind at your own risk!

Blending just the outer edge is probably enough...bottom line is, take it off slowly, ya can't put it back!

jj

[Tactica]

Rigger, I noticed you ground the edges all the way around on the outer edge (barrel extension lip) as well as the inner ring of the barrel where the shell rests (breach).

I realize you said perhaps you took too much, and that might not need to do anything on the interrior edge. However I'm curious about the outer edge... in hindsight, are there any places you would not grind on the circular outer edge (barrel extension rim) if you did it again?

Cheers,

[RiggerJJ]

Rigger, I noticed you ground the edges all the way around on the outer edge (barrel extension lip) as well as the inner ring of the barrel where the shell rests (breach).

I realize you said perhaps you took too much, and that might not need to do anything on the interrior edge. However I'm curious about the outer edge... in hindsight, are there any places you would not grind on the circular outer edge (barrel extension rim) if you did it again?

Cheers,

just comparing the two photos, it appears that my barrel was screwed into the extension a bit further than yours???

I don't think too much was taken from my outer at all.

I would think (again, proceed at your own risk!) that you could take quite a bit off the outer edge, and just break the edge of the inner, and then check it...

jmho!

jj

[Tactica]

Got the dremmel out, on lowest speed, annd attempted to carefully work down the corners around the extraction port. Here's the results. Looks more rough in the photos zoomed in than it does to the naked eye. I even used a fine wire polishing bit to try and feather out the work. To the touch, it seems very smooth.

I manually cycled 10 rounds through it of some stuff that did not cycle well before. Each fed correctly, which was a good sign.

Anyway, headed to the range for the real test to see how it runs now. I'll report back.

Cheers,

[cworks]

Got the dremmel out, on lowest speed, annd attempted to carefully work down the corners around the extraction port. Here's the results. Looks more rough in the photos zoomed in than it does to the naked eye. I even used a fine wire polishing bit to try and feather out the work. To the touch, it seems very smooth.

I manually cycled 10 rounds through it of some stuff that did not cycle well before. Each fed correctly, which was a good sign.

Anyway, headed to the range for the real test to see how it runs now. I'll report back.

Cheers,

Looks good! Do you have the modified feed ramps? If so can you take a picture of them?

[Tactica]

All,

Post throating / extension relief update:

Happy to report the careful work with the dremmel paid off. My slugs fed reliably, even the Remington low recoil sluggers that previously failed 2 out of 5 shots fed. My B&P slugs fed great as well, I put a whole box through it. I was feeding left-over birdshot rounds from brands that previously didn't and cases were deemed too soft - example was the red box bulk multipurpose ammo from walmart even fed without issue.

I only put 60 rounds through it because I had to get home for Halloween, and I was also zero'ing a rifle before the festiviities... but the improvement was immediately realized.

I didn't have a helper and was excited at the results, so didn't take as much video as before. Unfortunately, I left the camera at home today, so I'll have to work on getting it posted later.

Anyway, Jim, Nipplehead and Rigger JJ - it worked! I now feel like I can take this thing to competition and have it function reliably.

I still need to do some pattern testing and zero the dot with the slugs, so... will also try to get out again Friday.

Cworks,

I do not have the improved aluminum feed ramp. I am still running the stock ramp. That part was not done when I had Jim do the super tune on my Akdal 1919 a few weeks back. However, I've talked to him several times about it. As soon as my match is over on Nov 10, the lower will be shipped to Jim for feed ramp modification.

I know Rigger JJ has an aftermarket ramp. However, Jim said his was a prototype test ramp. The new ramp he is bringing to market is the culmination of several different test models and thousands of test rounds. Rigger JJ reports that his ramp works great. However, his prottype version requires the followers have a notch cut in them. The new ramp Jim went to market with does not require the notch in the followers. In addition, Jim said that should he come out with a second version of race ramp in the future or the aluminum lower receiver, the feed ramp he just came out with will have the same hole pattern and interchangably work with future parts.

If you are unaware, the stock feed ramp is part of the polymer lower by default. Jim has a routine programed that grinds out that ramp. If memory serves, the new ramp requires two pins and a screw to hold it in place.

Cheers,

[cworks]

Ok thanks. I thought the plastic/polymer looking stuff in the left of JJ's picture was the feed ramp. Thanks for the info and good luck

[Tactica]

Not the most entertaining video, but was at the range this weekend again and took some vid of the gun running. I'm happy to report that it fed everything 100% now. This is after the work on the barrel extension, so put those stills in the beginning of the vid as well.

I feel like I'm ready to take this thing to competition now, and I have my first local 3-gun match on Saturday.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Tactica

[cworks]

Good video! I have a few questions though. What ended up being the best for recoil and reliability in your opinion? I didn't see any malfunctions, so what felt the best?

[Tactica]

Correct, after the Dehorn / Deburr on the breach side of the barrel, the thing is just running everything I feed it now. Granted, it's getting pretty cold out now, so we are shooting in the 40's and low 50's. That means the hull on the shells are not heating up so everything is 'harder'.

Assuming you get down your options that run reliably, (Based on pre barrel work, I still stand by the harder hull shells), but next in my experience my selection of rounds come down to the following... and I'm sure I'm leaving things out. This shotgun stuff is all new to me, and so these opinions are just based upon my personal experience.

A. Economics

(1.) Availability

(2.) Cost

B. Performance

(1.) Pattern

(2.) Balistics - Drop / Spread

(3.) Recoil Pulse

(4.) Muzzle Movement

In the Firebird Precision tuned Akdal, the gas system is designed for low recoil, low pressures. So I tend to go with anything that runs 1200 FPS or less. It's worth noting that Nancy at Firebird told me to break it in with rounds going around 1300 FPS, then go to lighter loads for competition.

Buckshot: 1145 FPS low recoil, 9 pellet Federal Blue Box or the 1140 Federal Red box copper plated personal defense low recoil loads work and feel about the same, but the blue box is $1.00 per 5 rounds cheaper. The blue box does pattern differently as well. The Copper plated box has a wad that cups the pellets and creates a tighter group pretty consistently.

Birdshot: I've found several that I like. However, the Winchester double AA box and the Remington Gun Club (not the Game Rounds) have both proven to be the most readily available in my immediate area. I prefer the handicap Remington Nitro light loads the best. It is a great pattern, and the recoil pulse is so negligable that follow up shots are noticably faster. My second favorite choice so far would be the Remington STS loads... unless testing side by side with the handicap nitros, I could easily confuse them. I've found enough of these to get me through the upcoming match. The Remington Gun Club lighter loads are sold at a local outdoor store as are the Winchester AAs. Both of these have larger pattern spreads at 35 yards with a LM choke, but they are still adequate. They do pulse more, but the muzzle lift is negligable still.

Slugs: I had the most difficult time here. Finding local low recoil slugs has been a challenge. Slugs are ownly found in hunting stores around here, and as a result, they look at you like you want to just maim an animal for asking for low recoil slugs... however, when they realize you are a target / competition shooter, they become much more helpful. I ended up having to order the ones I chose for this upcoming match. Remington low recoil Sluggers fed well after the barrel modification, and did not feed well before. I tried two boxes of the B&P. The first box was great, but I've had several high primers in the second box of B&P low recoil slugs. Not sure what the deal is there. I've had to run the same round through 2 and 3 times on occasion out of the second box before it would fire. So for match day, I've decided not to run these. When they fire, they fire quite well, very soft pulse. However, I actually found the Remmington slugger to be a more accurate round shot to shot too, even though it pulses a bit harder. I plan to order some Fiochi's from Midway USA. They are a Missouri company, and usually get me product within a couple days. Not my preferred choice to have to order, but I'm stuck there no matter what I do until I get one of the local guys to stock what I like. So, I'll keep testing slugs for now. If Fiochi runs, I have a feeling that's where I'll land as I hear they have very consistent loads.

Cheers,