Red dot vs. iron for close range COF

[tb1911]

I've been an iron sight shooter all of my life, and I recently mounted an RMR on one of my M&P 40s along with suppressor sights so I can co-witness. This experience is teaching me a lot about about the process I go through when I shoot. What I now realize is that with iron, as I bring the gun to target, I use the slide to align the gun more then I realized. As the gun goes to final shooting position, I am adjusting the slide alignment and then finally picking up the sights as needed for the shot. For close range, this is really fast. Another aspect I notice is it is much easier to transition from target to target because the dot housing doesn't obstruct anything.

Now with the dot, aligning the slide no longer works (for me) and there is some obstruction. For close range shots (often the majority) it feels "clunky". I definitely see an advantage for longer shots, but for the < 21 foot shot, I wonder....

I've done some side-by-side comparison with close multiple targets and I am slightly faster with iron. That's me with a lot of iron experience and just a month or so with a dot.

I think about this for self defense shooting too, as there is a growing trend to put a dot on carry guns (this COULD become my carry gun if I master it.) So, for a close course of fire with relatively big targets, you guys in the know - is there a speed advantage with a dot given the appropriate training for close shooting?

Thanks!

[waynes_world_45]

Look at the target and bring the dot into view, then bang...it takes getting used to, for sure

[BoyGlock]

Given equal training, I think the dot has the advantage.

They are two different systems that require different focii.

Each has advantages and disadvantages but the dot has the upperhand even in close targets. And on any ambient light.

[CocoBolo]

Yes, those in your face targets where with irons you point and shoot they are a bit slower with the open gun, especially if you take dot. I've described the open gun as holding a plum with a hole in it, so your holding this plum with the hole the bullets come out of it and really you don't know where its coming out without the dot.

Early on in shooting open you find it very difficult to shoot without the dot after a while you do develope the confidence/index to shoot it up close without taking time to find the dot.

You do have to have some dicipline about it, never point shoot when there is a no shoot or hard cover, if it is open target "up close" then ok. My favorite to shoot dotless is those pesky laying down targets over the wall.

The open gun has an advantage over Iron's in that it recovers more quickly has a larger mag capacity, and should give you the ability to have better hits.

As mentioned you focus on target and superimpose the dot onto the target, this removes the time required to focus on that thing called sights.

If is perfectly normal for a Irons shooter to slow way down when switching to the dot, it does take some time to master the dot and lots and lots of dry fire done correctly thru ports around walls while leaning etc, every odd postion that you can think of, not just drawing to the dot, that is one of 32 requirements on a stage where you actually draw.

Don't short arm the gun and you will always find the dot, if you don't the fastest way is to start shooting, but requires dicipline, no noshoot, and no hardcover.

[redial]

I have exactly the same techniques (and concerns) as the OP, having shot open sights for a very loooong time. Since I now shoot wearing reading glasses, I realize I'll be moving to "assisted vision" IPSC in the near future.

Thanks for the input, gents. I was sweating the transition and it's good to know some of what lies ahead.

Mark

[Force]

I have exactly the same techniques (and concerns) as the OP, having shot open sights for a very loooong time. Since I now shoot wearing reading glasses, I realize I'll be moving to "assisted vision" IPSC in the near future.

Thanks for the input, gents. I was sweating the transition and it's good to know some of what lies ahead.

Mark

Luckily you won't be going the transition alone!

Next year we will give the "Assisted Vision" shooting a try!

[eddiegunks]

i shot my 1st open match last weekend. it took a bit to find the dot at 1st(matter of fact, 1st stage 1st shooter of the day and i forgot to turn on the dot! doh!).

i found just what coco said above. for the close in "safe" targets i could just point and shoot. the rest i found the dot (albeit slowly), my hits were great.

i enjoy irons, but i can see loving open.

[PJones1911]

I just put on a set of the Barry Dueck RTS sights and they are great. 2-3 inch groups offhand at 50 yards with irons at 45 degrees off my optic. Allows me to stay in Tac-Ops.

[Sin-ster]

IMHO, what you're describing with both guns is actually a shortcoming in your NPA and index.

The sights (and dot) should appear in alignment in front of wherever your eyes are focused, to the point where you can look at a spot, close your eyes, raise the gun, open your eyes again, and immediately be on target. Some vertical deviation may be a necessary evil, but the sights should indeed be aligned.

If you are actively adjusting alignment during the press out, or find yourself hunting for the dot, that's something you can work on in dry fire.

The first time I picked up an Open gun, I had heard the stories of finding/losing the dot and expected to experience the same. To date, it's never happened-- I believe because of the similarity of grip angle on 2011's and the M&Ps I shoot most frequently. Where ever my eyes go, so too do the sights/does the dot.

Edited October 21, 2012 by Sin-ster

[CocoBolo]

IMHO, what you're describing with both guns is actually a shortcoming in your NPA and index.

The sights (and dot) should appear in alignment in front of wherever your eyes are focused, to the point where you can look at a spot, close your eyes, raise the gun, open your eyes again, and immediately be on target. Some vertical deviation may be a necessary evil, but the sights should indeed be aligned.

If you are actively adjusting alignment during the press out, or find yourself hunting for the dot, that's something you can work on in dry fire.

The first time I picked up an Open gun, I had heard the stories of finding/losing the dot and expected to experience the same. To date, it's never happened-- I believe because of the similarity of grip angle on 2011's and the M&Ps I shoot most frequently. Where ever my eyes go, so too do the sights/does the dot.

Having perfect form and index in all odd positions is truely rare. NPA ok well if I pick a knat on the wall and then close my eyes and draw my open gun with eyes closed, well its on the knat. However when running thru a course of fire crouching down leaning left I keep my eyes open, that must be the problem.

You assertion that this can be cured in dry fire is correct, but more importantly not just throwing the gun up freestyle, weak hand, strong hand, but also while moving, leaning, bending, and introducing objects in the path.

A standard range COF is out to 15 yards so a close COF would be no more than 5 yards and at distance like that we are talking about no sights point/instinct shooting and I having shot both more than a few rounds find the iron sight gun faster and easier at these rather shot shots. More likley it is a confidence issue rather than an NPA break down.

I've witnessed several M and higher limited shooters go from an Edge or Eagle to an STI open gun, and we are talking shooters way above my ability, former World Shoot champion in the mix, and it is interesting to watch as they do the C-More Shuffle, now thinking that their NPA is weak or their index is off, no I don't think so, there are things you can do with an Iron sight gun and get away with that just don't work with the dot. No short arming.

Edited October 21, 2012 by CocoBolo

[Sin-ster]

Ahh, I hadn't considered "short arming" and other awkward positions-- though I do my level best to not get into them when at all possible. (I.E. leaning out further to keep the gun vertical and extended, closer to my standard NPA, as opposed to rolling over at the waist.)

That's interesting what you say about the tight/short shots. I would think just having a window, dot or not, to see targets through would make you MORE confident in this situations as opposed to less. "It's in the glass, it's on target" type of deal. But I guess the distraction of the dot being off center, or not there at all (when you know it should be) could mess with your head.

On the flip side... I've seen several shooters, middling on up to Godly, have their dot go out or their sight come loose on a CoF and continue plugging away to great success with an Open gun. Just this Sunday, a friend had his dot crap out on the PPR and cleared the last 3 plates (while it was spinning) without it. I recall another buddy failing to even turn the dot on to begin with, and plugging away 1-for-1 on 20 yard mini poppers.

Given, they weren't in a situation where their basic NPA was altered-- just standing and shooting.