Sighting in Saiga 12 with Aimpoint Micro

[greatlakes08]

I going to sight in my Saiga with the new red and wanted to know the best way to go about it. One way which has been suggested to me is sight in at 25 yards with a slug and I should be good to go for bird shot as well. I am thinking about sighting in with a slug at 50 yards but I am not sure if I will still be on target for close up bird shots? Any help would be appreciated. The slugs I am using are Winchester PDX1 Defense slugs. The rated velocity is 1600 FPS.

[mscott]

I would sight it in with slugs at 50 yards and then pattern it on paper at 25 to make sure everything is good.

[Alaskapopo]

Pattern at 15 yards and match slugs to your point of impact at 50 as best you can.

Pat

[greatlakes08]

Pattern at 15 yards and match slugs to your point of impact at 50 as best you can.

Pat

So I should adjust the dot to the pattern at 15 yrds first then adjust additionally for the slugs at 50 yards?

[SinistralRifleman]

Start with Slugs at 25 yards, then Zero at 50. I haven't ever missed shot targets because I zeroed with slugs at 25 or 50. I have missed slugs becase I tried to accomodate for bore offset too much at close range zeroing for shot.

Zeroing the saiga can be frustrating because where the optic starts and where the bore is pointed can be dramatically different, and there aren't any real iron sights to match up with the dot. A laser bore sighter can help a lot to get it on paper.

[Alaskapopo]

Pattern at 15 yards and match slugs to your point of impact at 50 as best you can.

Pat

So I should adjust the dot to the pattern at 15 yrds first then adjust additionally for the slugs at 50 yards?

Yep that is pretty much it. I will say I disagree withSinistralrifleman on this one. I have found its far easier to hold off for slugs vs trying to remember to hold off on the 95% of the targets you shoot that are shot. It really matters on hard to knock over steel targets. The best is to have a slug that matches your shot pattern. I am pretty close with Fiochi 1 ounch reduced recoil slugs.

Also I can't explain why but it because much easier for me to sight in once I got an Arredondo mount that puts the red dot right next to my eye. With the optic up front I had more frustration.

Pat

Edited October 2, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[THM7]

1600 fps wow! I shoot the Winchester Ranger Slugs...right around 1200 fps. Anyway Zero for what you be shooting 98% of the time...birdshot at 15-20 yards. Alaskapopo pretty much has it right...adjust for the slugs at 25,50,75,100 yards.

Edited October 2, 2012 by THM7

[mikeAZ]

I don't see any reference to... "chokes".

I've spent some time patterning several shotguns with differnt chokes all which gave different results as expected. (None of the shotguns had the forcing cone reamed). Slugs were somewhat of a mystery for awhile. If you don't "pattern" the gun you are handicapping yourself.....you really don't know what the gun is doing. Go get a roll of builder's paper from Home Depot/ Lowe's/etc. ($10) and some card board if your a do-it-your-selfer, 3' circle will work..

I did the 25/30 yd. patterning and then shot the slugs at the same target at the same time. I did adjust the PolyChoke and diffinatly got different groups with different brands of slugs. I got some really good 12"/16" groups ( various # 7 1/2 low vel. birdshot) with the PolyChocke on "full" which really suprised me..as I thought I'd just have a big hole...

Saiga 12, 19". (I don't know the constriction rating of the stock 19" barrel, cyl??? ) I put a vented PolyChoke on my just built Saiga 12, 19", I'm in the process of testing and patterning, one thing I can tell the PolyChoke makes a BIG differance on the different settings (it works). My reasoning with going with the PolyChoke was it's about the same price as the 3 choke kit but is way easy the change IF there was a need in diffent courses of fire.... (I did the "white" finger nail polish trick to make the settings easy to see.) "Red" locktite it for a semi permenent lock as it will lossen.

Give this some thought...

Also, If your gun will run them, why not low vel. slugs????...

I changed the Saiga front sight to a HiVis green dot (wasn't easy), will have to do for now. I've got a C-More for it but just don't see a way to keep it low to the bore....

Edited October 2, 2012 by mike NM

[SinistralRifleman]

Yep that is pretty much it. I will say I disagree withSinistralrifleman on this one. I have found its far easier to hold off for slugs vs trying to remember to hold off on the 95% of the targets you shoot that are shot.

Most of the Saiga-12 Optic mounts are 2-3" off the bore. Zeroing too close results in a more dramatic difference between point of aim and point of impact.

I don't consciously hold differently on close range steel. The shot pattern is spreading about 1/2" to 1" per yard of travel depending on your choke. A point of aim vs point of impact differential within 1-1.5" when the shot pattern itself it 7.5"-15" across is negligible. In the odd event that you do actually fail to put down a steel target it is much easier to deal with both from a recoil management/maintaining sight picture perspective and ammunition management persepctive than missing a slug shot. In the case of a missed slug shot the recoil is more severe and disturbs the sight picture more and generally requires more precise aiming than blasting steel at 10-15 yards. Unless you're reloading with a whole mag full of slugs, it's much harder to make up that extra slug shot in the Saiga.

Assuming a 12 gauge one ounce slug at 1560 muzzle velocity with 2" bore offset with a 15 yard zero at 25 yards you are 1.1" high, at 50 yards 3.1" high and at 75 yards 3.7" high, and at 100 yards 2.4" high.

Same thing with 50 yard zero 10 yards -1.3", 15 yards -0.9", 20 yards -0.7, 25 yards -0.4, 50 dead on, 75 yards -1", 100 yards -3.8"

A 50 yard zero has less deviation between point of aim and point of impact from 0-75 yards and at 100 yards assuming a 4MOA dot, you just hold 1 dot high.

None of this is really relevant at many matches where slug targets are closer or so large it doesn't really matter. Accuracy with Slugs at a match like Ironman with smaller targets at farther distances that can be moving is a lot more critical. Using low recoil slugs is great for paper and stationary steel, but if you have to knock something over or rotate a double spinner they suck, the extra 350-400 feet per second makes a difference in these cases.

I've used the Poly choke; dialing it up and down to the same position you zeroed on changes POI with slugs as debris builds up.

I used the Winchoke adapater one company was offering, and the threads on the Saiga barrel weren't concentric and the chokes were off center.

I used the SGM chokes and they destroyed my slug accuracy by shaving a lot of lead of the slugs.

These were all used on different guns. I personally think the Saiga is best off with no choke, and if you want one get a new barrel threaded for good chokes or have your gun modified by a reputable smith.

Edited October 3, 2012 by SinistralRifleman

[Alaskapopo]

Yep that is pretty much it. I will say I disagree withSinistralrifleman on this one. I have found its far easier to hold off for slugs vs trying to remember to hold off on the 95% of the targets you shoot that are shot.

Most of the Saiga-12 Optic mounts are 2-3" off the bore. Zeroing too close results in a more dramatic difference between point of aim and point of impact.

I don't consciously hold differently on close range steel. The shot pattern is spreading about 1/2" to 1" per yard of travel depending on your choke. A point of aim vs point of impact differential within 1-1.5" when the shot pattern itself it 7.5"-15" across is negligible. In the odd event that you do actually fail to put down a steel target it is much easier to deal with both from a recoil management/maintaining sight picture perspective and ammunition management persepctive than missing a slug shot. In the case of a missed slug shot the recoil is more severe and disturbs the sight picture more and generally requires more precise aiming than blasting steel at 10-15 yards. Unless you're reloading with a whole mag full of slugs, it's much harder to make up that extra slug shot in the Saiga.

Assuming a 12 gauge one ounce slug at 1560 muzzle velocity with 2" bore offset with a 15 yard zero at 25 yards you are 1.1" high, at 50 yards 3.1" high and at 75 yards 3.7" high, and at 100 yards 2.4" high.

Same thing with 50 yard zero 10 yards -1.3", 15 yards -0.9", 20 yards -0.7, 25 yards -0.4, 50 dead on, 75 yards -1", 100 yards -3.8"

A 50 yard zero has less deviation between point of aim and point of impact from 0-75 yards and at 100 yards assuming a 4MOA dot, you just hold 1 dot high.

None of this is really relevant at many matches where slug targets are closer or so large it doesn't really matter. Accuracy with Slugs at a match like Ironman with smaller targets at farther distances that can be moving is a lot more critical. Using low recoil slugs is great for paper and stationary steel, but if you have to knock something over or rotate a double spinner they suck, the extra 350-400 feet per second makes a difference in these cases.

I've used the Poly choke; dialing it up and down to the same position you zeroed on changes POI with slugs as debris builds up.

I used the Winchoke adapater one company was offering, and the threads on the Saiga barrel weren't concentric and the chokes were off center.

I used the SGM chokes and they destroyed my slug accuracy by shaving a lot of lead of the slugs.

These were all used on different guns. I personally think the Saiga is best off with no choke, and if you want one get a new barrel threaded for good chokes or have your gun modified by a reputable smith.

I am using a Arredondo mount with a Delta point and my height over bore is approximately an inch and a quarter. I run slugs way slower than yours. I chrononed the 1 ounch Fiochi slugs and their going 1050 in my saiga. Another thing I do is with the Delta point I use the tip of the triangle for slugs and the whole thing up close for shot this compensates some what for the height over bore issue.

I have never had to shoot a spinner with slugs. I don't like shooting hot slugs through my gun as it does batter the gun more. I think you need a choke on any shotgun and my Saiga is set up for Rem chokes and they work fine. I have patterned each of my chokes and shot them with slugs except full to see if there is any point of impact difference and so far I have not seen any. Also I have never had an issue knocking poppers down with reduced recoil slugs.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[SinistralRifleman]

Your system works for you because of your lower bore offset, lower slug velocity, and different sight information the delta point gives you.

The original poster is using a optic and slug combination (aimpoint micro and 1600fps slugs) closer to what I use and have used in the past. I'm currently using an aimpoint ml2 in rs regulate mount. I've used an ultimak mounted aimpoint micro in the past. I dont see an Arredondo mount available for the micro or anything that would mount it lower than the rs regulate or ultimak. The bore offset really makes a difference for effective zeroing range.

The rs regulate mount is the best thing going for mounting aimpoints to the Saiga currently.

Edited October 3, 2012 by SinistralRifleman

[Dustin Lohof]

I going to sight in my Saiga with the new red and wanted to know the best way to go about it. One way which has been suggested to me is sight in at 25 yards with a slug and I should be good to go for bird shot as well. I am thinking about sighting in with a slug at 50 yards but I am not sure if I will still be on target for close up bird shots? Any help would be appreciated. The slugs I am using are Winchester PDX1 Defense slugs. The rated velocity is 1600 FPS.

You'er going to have problems with the slugs you'er shooting. Go to something that matches your shot unless your shot is high base 1600 fps in which case you had better be running at least a 25 pound recoil spring.

Dusty

[Alaskapopo]

Your system works for you because of your lower bore offset, lower slug velocity, and different sight information the delta point gives you.

The original poster is using a optic and slug combination (aimpoint micro and 1600fps slugs) closer to what I use and have used in the past. I'm currently using an aimpoint ml2 in rs regulate mount. I've used an ultimak mounted aimpoint micro in the past. I dont see an Arredondo mount available for the micro or anything that would mount it lower than the rs regulate or ultimak. The bore offset really makes a difference for effective zeroing range.

The rs regulate mount is the best thing going for mounting aimpoints to the Saiga currently.

I like RS regulate as well. Here is my back up Saiga I am working on. I plan to add a R&R mag well to it later and a comp.

I did have a problem with this mount originally with high recoil shells the mount slid on the reciever. I sent it back and the owner beefed it up and added a better recoil block that used to just be a sliding pin its now a bolt. That said for shotguns I much prefer the Arredondo mount with one of the micro red dots (Delta Point, Fast Fire etc) I have found having the optic close to my eye helps with airborn targets. No way would I use 1600 fps slugs. My first major three gun I shot full power slugs and it hurt a lot more than it helped, with the slower shot recovery. I just don't see a need. But I have never shot a spinner with slugs nor will I let anyone shoot mine with slugs either don't want to tear up my steel.

Edited October 3, 2012 by Alaskapopo

[Stlhead]

Holy crap! Dusty posted. I am going to save a copy of this thread for future reference. I was just checking out this thread to see how long it was before the OP's bolt carrier exploded and now I get to enjoy a rare Dusty sighting.

[greatlakes08]

I never could get a zero using the 1600 FPS slugs. I replaced them with Remington slugger and zeroed at 50 and 100 yrds with 6 shots. Before I shot slugs I first patterned at 15 yrds with bird.

Your system works for you because of your lower bore offset, lower slug velocity, and different sight information the delta point gives you.

The original poster is using a optic and slug combination (aimpoint micro and 1600fps slugs) closer to what I use and have used in the past. I'm currently using an aimpoint ml2 in rs regulate mount. I've used an ultimak mounted aimpoint micro in the past. I dont see an Arredondo mount available for the micro or anything that would mount it lower than the rs regulate or ultimak. The bore offset really makes a difference for effective zeroing range.

The rs regulate mount is the best thing going for mounting aimpoints to the Saiga currently.

I like RS regulate as well. Here is my back up Saiga I am working on. I plan to add a R&R mag well to it later and a comp.

I did have a problem with this mount originally with high recoil shells the mount slid on the reciever. I sent it back and the owner beefed it up and added a better recoil block that used to just be a sliding pin its now a bolt. That said for shotguns I much prefer the Arredondo mount with one of the micro red dots (Delta Point, Fast Fire etc) I have found having the optic close to my eye helps with airborn targets. No way would I use 1600 fps slugs. My first major three gun I shot full power slugs and it hurt a lot more than it helped, with the slower shot recovery. I just don't see a need. But I have never shot a spinner with slugs nor will I let anyone shoot mine with slugs either don't want to tear up my steel.

[greatlakes08]

If you are not using a choke how are you knocking down steel at greater distances? I was thinking about purchasing a polychoke. How many rounds did you shoot before the debris buildup effected the POI?

Yep that is pretty much it. I will say I disagree withSinistralrifleman on this one. I have found its far easier to hold off for slugs vs trying to remember to hold off on the 95% of the targets you shoot that are shot.

Most of the Saiga-12 Optic mounts are 2-3" off the bore. Zeroing too close results in a more dramatic difference between point of aim and point of impact.

I don't consciously hold differently on close range steel. The shot pattern is spreading about 1/2" to 1" per yard of travel depending on your choke. A point of aim vs point of impact differential within 1-1.5" when the shot pattern itself it 7.5"-15" across is negligible. In the odd event that you do actually fail to put down a steel target it is much easier to deal with both from a recoil management/maintaining sight picture perspective and ammunition management persepctive than missing a slug shot. In the case of a missed slug shot the recoil is more severe and disturbs the sight picture more and generally requires more precise aiming than blasting steel at 10-15 yards. Unless you're reloading with a whole mag full of slugs, it's much harder to make up that extra slug shot in the Saiga.

Assuming a 12 gauge one ounce slug at 1560 muzzle velocity with 2" bore offset with a 15 yard zero at 25 yards you are 1.1" high, at 50 yards 3.1" high and at 75 yards 3.7" high, and at 100 yards 2.4" high.

Same thing with 50 yard zero 10 yards -1.3", 15 yards -0.9", 20 yards -0.7, 25 yards -0.4, 50 dead on, 75 yards -1", 100 yards -3.8"

A 50 yard zero has less deviation between point of aim and point of impact from 0-75 yards and at 100 yards assuming a 4MOA dot, you just hold 1 dot high.

None of this is really relevant at many matches where slug targets are closer or so large it doesn't really matter. Accuracy with Slugs at a match like Ironman with smaller targets at farther distances that can be moving is a lot more critical. Using low recoil slugs is great for paper and stationary steel, but if you have to knock something over or rotate a double spinner they suck, the extra 350-400 feet per second makes a difference in these cases.

I've used the Poly choke; dialing it up and down to the same position you zeroed on changes POI with slugs as debris builds up.

I used the Winchoke adapater one company was offering, and the threads on the Saiga barrel weren't concentric and the chokes were off center.

I used the SGM chokes and they destroyed my slug accuracy by shaving a lot of lead of the slugs.

These were all used on different guns. I personally think the Saiga is best off with no choke, and if you want one get a new barrel threaded for good chokes or have your gun modified by a reputable smith.