Vlad Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 As I am getting ready to shoot production for a while, another post noted a problem I knew of for a while. The rules require manually decocking with the hammer all the way down, which I assume means that the hammer should be resting on the firing pin, as opposed to a halfcock notch. Leaving aside the fact that decocking a Sig using the decocker leaves the hammer at sort of half cock, there are a couple of serious safety issues. First there the obvious that a gun with the hammer resting on the firing pin can be a safety issue by itself. Not all guns have a firing pin block. Second, my CZ manual clearly states that if I manually decock my gun I should only drop it to half cock. Thus USPSA asks me break the safety rules as recommened by the manufacturer. And lastly there is higher risk of a AD by bypassing a safety feature (half cock notch) At least on my CZ there no real difference in trigger pulls between full decock and half cock. They weight is the same, and so is the length of pull, though it changes the ammount of takeup. In fact the extra takeup makes the shooting from halfcock harder but that is something I rather have then a less then safe decock. Am I missing something? Why do we have this rule? Is it really clever for USPSA to ask shooters to bypass recommended manufaturer safeties and procedures? Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Vlad, are you sure that USPSA doesn't allow manually decocking to half-cock notch? I ask this because in the thread you refer to (this one), reading EricW reply, I had the impression that USPSA had a different ruling than IPSC on this specific issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 17, 2004 Author Share Posted August 17, 2004 Given my reading of 8.1.2.2/8.1.2.3 about the definition of valid states and what the book says about what decocked means and combining that with the fact the both old an new rules make it clear that a production gun can not start cocked, my interpretation is that the hammer must be fully down. I would love to hear that I am wrong. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 "there are a couple of serious safety issues. First there the obvious that a gun with the hammer resting on the firing pin can be a safety issue by itself. Not all guns have a firing pin block. Second, my CZ manual clearly states that if I manually decock my gun I should only drop it to half cock. Thus USPSA asks me break the safety rules as recommened by the manufacturer." Great point Vlad! I also shoot a CZ, though not a 75. Rather I shoot an 85 Combat - as in "Combat shooting sports/competition model"; it is a dedicated IPSC/USPSA gun that comes with adjustable sights only. Since it is only meant for competition, it lacks a Series 80 safety/firing pin safety that comes standard on the CZ 75 (just like an SV/STI: no Series 80 safety). Lowering the hammer all the way down on a CZ would rest the hammer right on the pin & might even push the pin against the primer. I won't do it. Frankly, I think it is unsafe gun handling to do so. I only shoot USPSA and so far, no RO has had a problem with me shooting the gun as it was intended: hammer fully down on the half-cock notch. It is the same fashion that every Sig starts off in Production Division. I understand that the current IPSC rule would not 1/2 cock on the CZ. However, I believe both USPSA and IPSC should make the Sig & the CZ start in the same place: on the 1/2 cock notch. Your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 In the twin thread, started by jkushner1, I quoted the official ruling by IPSC/IROA. Sometimes I don't agree, but I have to follow the rules. My opinion is that on a DA gun that lacks the firing pin safety, the only safe loaded-condition start is with hammer resting on half-cock notch. Besides, the trigger pull weight is still the same, as Vlad noted, and the overall trigger travel is only slightly reduced. IMHO, this is a safety issue that should be brought to discussion to the next IPSC rules committee meeting. But don't let Darth read this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Second, my CZ manual clearly states that if I manually decock my gun I should only drop it to half cock. From this list, please identify exactly which model CZ75 you own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted August 17, 2004 Author Share Posted August 17, 2004 I have CZ75B, though Vince has a point. I just read the online manual and now the manual says that the hammer should be lowered on the firing pin stop. However the printed manual I have, which is older and different in more ways then one, talks about the half cock. It may be that my manual was writen for the Pre-B models and because I got a strange model (military contract gun) I may also gotten a strange manual. I concede that point and withdraw my manufacturer issue. Though it does puzzle me that they have the same procedure for the 85 Combat which lacks a firing pin block. I maintain it is still an unsafe practice, though I am a bit less concerned about the legal issues as the practice is in line with the manual. Vlad Edited to add: amuzingly my CZ does not have a firing pin stop, so from that point of view the manual is still wrong, but I know what they meant. I just found it funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 From the other thread: Some sorta language like "hammer completely down or an equivalent fully-decocked state." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dv8 Posted September 22, 2004 Share Posted September 22, 2004 My girlfriend is now shooting my CZ 85 Combat and she is doing this manual hammer-down thing with no problem. But just last weekend an RO seriously scared her saying that sooner or later it will cause her a very serious injury. I used this gun for a while myself and she is shooting it for a few months too, but after last weekend she is somewhat afraid of the gun. I know a few more shooters using this kind of gun and having no problems. I also think that there must be a lot more of these guns in use in Europe... So, my question is whether anyone witnessed or heard of an AD caused by loosing the hammer while manualy lowering it. If so, was there any kind of serious injury inflicted? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
race1911 Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I used an 85 Combat all year in Production and had absolutely no problems with manually lowering the hammer.....haven't heard of any AD's from other shooters using them either.............have you asked Angus Hobdell?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 dv8, tell your GF that since the Production Division started in IPSC shooting, here in Italy at least 60/80 competitors at each league match (16 per year) have been manually lowering their hammer on a Tanfoglio (very similar to CZ), and I never ever heard of an AD while doing this. I'm a RO, but sometimes I wish ROs STFU when it comes to anything else than range commands, especially when they try to give advices on how the COF could be shot, or when they give questionable advices to novices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 My girlfriend is now shooting my CZ 85 Combat and she is doing this manual hammer-down thing with no problem. But just last weekend an RO seriously scared her saying that sooner or later it will cause her a very serious injury. I used this gun for a while myself and she is shooting it for a few months too, but after last weekend she is somewhat afraid of the gun. ARGH! If I hear any of you say something like this to a shooter I'm gonna take you out to the parking lot and beat some sense into you! I know everyone thinks their an expert on safety and all of you would think this was a well meaning comment but comments like this are the NUMBER 1 REASON WOMEN GIVE UP ON SHOOTING!!!!! So please please please, keep those well meant safety comments to yourselves! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Seen a woman at the Clay Target Club go from 20-23/25 average to 8-11/25 max due to 20 men giving advice and she listening to them.... Told her to go home, drop the game for 6months to a year and then try again and before she does she should tell ALL F-off, pick one individual to help and then get on with it.... She was couple of weeks pregnant at the time I told here the above - so it wasn't bad advice.... Guys should stop showing off and girls should learn to tell those guys to F-off and filter what they are told...for their own good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Told her to go home, drop the game for 6months to a year and then try again and before she does she should tell ALL F-off, pick one individual to help and then get on with it.... Okay DB, since she was preggers I won't bitch you out TOO MUCH! But why on earth would you tell her to give up?!?!?! I don't like the advice at all! Next time, continue with the tell them all to f-off comment, but encourage her to CONTINUE SHOOTING! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Buff Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I did that because she was "preggers" (as you put it - my wife would kill me... )...might not have come out that way. I did encourage her to come shoot IPSC for the time beeing (OK according to doc due to lack of recoil....kid might come out yelling "hands up or I'll shoot" - doc's quote...) to get focused again... The guys still don't leave her alone and she has not learned NOT to listen or chase 'em off...her husband (a beginner) can't even get them to back off... Because of a--holes like that, my wife seldom wants to come and shoot CT...I have to beg her....IPSC is OK and I've "grown" our female members from nothing to 4 in 1 year.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Hobdell Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I have been lowering the hammer all the way and so far have not had an AD. At the matches I am especially carefull and use both fingers, make sure I have a firm grip in the hole of the hammer before I pull the hammer back release the trgiier and lower the hammer. FYI. CZ decoker style guns only lower the hammer to half cock, they do not lower it any furthur then that, so if the rules state that the hammer has to be all the way down then how is this possible when the gun can't do it. So now we have to decock and then manually lower the hammer NUTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dv8 Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Well, I think you guys just fixed it. My girlfriend read your responces and told me she feels a whole lot better now. I too think that the RO shouldn't have said what he said, but he meant well, and I'm not going to hold it against him. BTW, I told her she can switch to Limited or Open and shoot any other guns I've got for those divisions, but she said she wants to stay with the same CZ 85 Combat and shoot Production just like I do... Now, isn't that sweet? Thanks alot guys and gals - you are great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now