10.5.17 -- When to "Stop"?

[Sin-ster]

Specifically-- do you stop a competitor before they engage the offending piece of steel, or after the first shot is fired?

We talk a lot about not making decisions based on assumed intent-- but at the same time, the first shot might be the one that gets someone hurt in this particular case. I can't find any provision for stopping a shooter before he earns the DQ, and then issuing a Reshoot-- unless you want to stretch RO Interference, I suppose... (But that opens a HUGE door for gaming free Reshoots...)

Here's what happened to get me thinking about it:

The stage was approximately 30-35 yards long from the start position to the rear berm. Along the right side are Metric targets with No Shoots closer to the shooting area, requiring forward movement of the shooter in order to successfully engage everything. The front fault line is roughly 20 yards from the rear/start position, and there is a 5-plate rack at the base of the rear berm.

The very first shooter of the squad blows right by the front line while still engaging the paper on the right side. RO is counting off Procedurals (5), shooter stops to conduct his final mag change. Visibly, he is probably inside the 23 feet in relation to the plates... but not so close that it will be flagrantly obvious to him.

If he doesn't realize his mistake, when do you hollar "STOP"? When he takes aim on the plates? Puts his finger in the trigger guard? Before he gets that close, in case he breaks a shot anyway? After the first shot?

What happened was... well, odd-- but safe. I meant to walk off the actual distance of the rack, but got distracted and forgot...

[Skydiver]

I don't see the problem. Worst case scenario: 30 yards long from the start position to the rear berm. 20 yards of shooting area leaves 10 yards between front fault line and the base of the rear berm. 10 yards == 30 feet. 30 feet is greater than the 26 feet required by rule 2.1.3 when using fault lines instead of physical barriers.

Although not NROI approved, our club makes a point to put down red Steel DQ lines at 23 from steel and have WSB's stipulate that steel engaged beyond those lines will result in a DQ. It makes it easier on RO to determine whether the shooter was too close or not, and its a friendly reminder to shooters that engaging steel less than 23 feet away will be a DQ.

As for your specific question, the specific rule for the DQ requires a shot to have been fired:

10.5.17 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 23 feet ...

If you call STOP! before they fire, and issue a DQ, it will have to be under the generic 10.5. Unsafe Gun Handling, rather than the specific 10.5.17.

Personally, if I completely lost track and overran the fault lines and got closer than 23 feet to steel that I was about to shoot, I would rather have the RO DQ me for 10.5 before I've fired the shot. I'd rather be safe, unhurt, and helping the squads/match for the rest of the match. I agree though that it could be a way to fish for a free reshoot.

A better call from the RO would be a safety warning "You are too close to steel" when the gun starts coming up to the target. (See 8.6.1.)

[Sin-ster]

I don't see the problem. Worst case scenario: 30 yards long from the start position to the rear berm. 20 yards of shooting area leaves 10 yards between front fault line and the base of the rear berm. 10 yards == 30 feet. 30 feet is greater than the 26 feet required by rule 2.1.3 when using fault lines instead of physical barriers.

Although not NROI approved, our club makes a point to put down red Steel DQ lines at 23 from steel and have WSB's stipulate that steel engaged beyond those lines will result in a DQ. It makes it easier on RO to determine whether the shooter was too close or not, and its a friendly reminder to shooters that engaging steel less than 23 feet away will be a DQ.

As for your specific question, the specific rule for the DQ requires a shot to have been fired:

10.5.17 A shot fired at a metal target from a distance of less than 23 feet ...

If you call STOP! before they fire, and issue a DQ, it will have to be under the generic 10.5. Unsafe Gun Handling, rather than the specific 10.5.17.

Personally, if I completely lost track and overran the fault lines and got closer than 23 feet to steel that I was about to shoot, I would rather have the RO DQ me for 10.5 before I've fired the shot. I'd rather be safe, unhurt, and helping the squads/match for the rest of the match. I agree though that it could be a way to fish for a free reshoot.

A better call from the RO would be a safety warning "You are too close to steel" when the gun starts coming up to the target. (See 8.6.1.)

This wasn't a single step foot fault-- he was way across the line. Best guess, he was probably 20-23 feet from the steel-- and especially in the heat of the moment, it was hard to tell.

That's a really good idea with the fault lines for the steel. If I'm ROing an L2, and stick to one stage, I'll walk off the distances so I know when to stop someone-- but at a Local, it never occurred to me. ESPECIALLY in a situation like this, where it didn't seem like it'd be a likely situation.

In fact what you suggest under 8.6.1 is what happened.

As the shooter was conducting his final reload before shooting the steel, he realized that he had overshot the fault line and started to back up. However, probably under the stress of the situation, he stopped about 6 feet SHORT of the shooting area and took a flat footed shooting stance as he was gassing his pistol back up. The RO on the score sheet issued a warning like the one you suggest, and he backed up even further, across the fault line anew. I couldn't tell if he was actually going to try to engage from there, or his distance from the steel, so I was definitely waiting for the reload to finish before doing the same.

It definitely froze me at first-- I was running Procedurals off in my head and watching his finger during the reload. That's why we have two ROs, I suppose!

Now had the guy NOT needed a fresh mag at the end, when do you give the warning? As he transitions towards the steel, or while he's still shooting the paper (and has the chance to not incur a couple Procedurals, thereby effecting his score on the stage)?

Obviously if one shot goes off, it's a "STOP"-- even if we have to break out the measuring tape and issue a Reshoot, I'm personally not comfortable with risking it...

[Skydiver]

That's a really good idea with the fault lines for the steel.

Just remember to keep those Steel DQ lines off your diagrams when submitting diagrams for Level II approval, or when working on your CRO certification. They tend to confuse things and generate an extra round of dialogue asking "what are those fault lines?"

I think the general assumption is that good RO's will pace off distances from steel before a stage starts so that they have a reference point for later. As I said our club puts them down a convenience for our RO's and shooters.

[mactiger]

I have a better idea. How about setting your course of fire up right, not violating the rules, and then not needing to either A) put down "steel DQ lines", or keep them off your stage diagrams (and then go ahead and use them anyway), so you can get sanction or pass a Level II course.

It's just not that hard to do things the right way.

You can't just pull a generic 10.5 UGH DQ out of your pocket because you think a competitor is going to fire a shot at a piece of steel from too close. He either fires the shot, in which case he's DQ'd under 10.5.17, or I suppose you could warn him as was done here, although a better alternative would have been a physical barrier of some sort, as mentioned in 2.1.3.

USPSA publishes a rule book and makes it available to everyone because, and teaches scores of RO seminars every year because.....wait for it, we want you to follow the rules. It's a tremendous disservice to your club members to not do it the right way, and a waste of training for some people, obviously.

I'm all for safety, and warning this competitor, especially at a level one match and even more so if he was new, is an OK thing to do, and is permitted under the rules. But, having said that, 20 feet is not all that much closer than 23, so I might just let you fire that shot before I warn you or call stop and DQ you.

There is a lesson to be learned from getting DQ'd, at least for most of us. Sometimes getting off with just a warning doesn't have the same results.

[Skydiver]

I have to agree with Troy. After he's educated me in the ways of physical barriers, I've not had to use many steel DQ lines on my stage designs lately. (Only exception was for a speed shoot I setup this year. There was no real reason for the shooter to leave the shooting box that was 30 feet away from the steel, but the MD/RM wanted one anyway.)

[Sin-ster]

I have a better idea. How about setting your course of fire up right, not violating the rules, and then not needing to either A) put down "steel DQ lines", or keep them off your stage diagrams (and then go ahead and use them anyway), so you can get sanction or pass a Level II course.

It's just not that hard to do things the right way.

You can't just pull a generic 10.5 UGH DQ out of your pocket because you think a competitor is going to fire a shot at a piece of steel from too close. He either fires the shot, in which case he's DQ'd under 10.5.17, or I suppose you could warn him as was done here, although a better alternative would have been a physical barrier of some sort, as mentioned in 2.1.3.

USPSA publishes a rule book and makes it available to everyone because, and teaches scores of RO seminars every year because.....wait for it, we want you to follow the rules. It's a tremendous disservice to your club members to not do it the right way, and a waste of training for some people, obviously.

I'm all for safety, and warning this competitor, especially at a level one match and even more so if he was new, is an OK thing to do, and is permitted under the rules. But, having said that, 20 feet is not all that much closer than 23, so I might just let you fire that shot before I warn you or call stop and DQ you.

There is a lesson to be learned from getting DQ'd, at least for most of us. Sometimes getting off with just a warning doesn't have the same results.

I was hoping you'd find this!

The first thing I did was to jump to the Rulebook, and 2.3.1 was worded as I remembered.

Now I'm 100% positive that the fault line was over 26 feet from the steel, but the paper targets on the right extended to the back of the berm as well. Otherwise, no shooter would have ever blundered so far over the line-- and it was that extra travel that created the situation. As the rule and your post suggests, a low wall there (or perhaps even a single barrel to better indicate the end of the shooting area) would have solved the problem without changing the actual layout of the CoF.

I think it was a situation that no one really saw coming-- certainly not myself, and most likely not the stage design/set-up team. I certainly learned from the experience, though-- as an RO and a potential stage designer myself.

As you taught my RO class, I could actually hear you talking about the generic 10.5 "ugh" DQ as I was thinking about the incident after the match. Subsequently, because he was not right on top of the steel, that would have been my call as well I believe had there been no time to issue the warning-- fire the shot, call for a stop, issue the DQ.

But I obviously agree that simply putting up a physical barricade (as it was very much possible) would have been the best solution.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Sin-ster

[Nik Habicht]

Sin,

I'm with Troy. For the record, we had that issue on one stage at the Mid-Atlantic Section match this year during set-up. Narrow bays, and no matter how we angled the stage/steel we couldn't get more than 25 feet from the fault line. (Want to have some fun -- spend an hour with a designer, who's an engineer and a measuring tape.) We solved the problem by putting up waist high walls where the fault line was indicated on the diagram.

If however you find yourself running a stage such as the one described, do everyone at the match a favor and issue the "Stop" command if you think the shooter is too close, and you have time. I'd rather issue the reshoot, than have to perform first aid....

[Sin-ster]

Sin,

I'm with Troy. For the record, we had that issue on one stage at the Mid-Atlantic Section match this year during set-up. Narrow bays, and no matter how we angled the stage/steel we couldn't get more than 25 feet from the fault line. (Want to have some fun -- spend an hour with a designer, who's an engineer and a measuring tape.) We solved the problem by putting up waist high walls where the fault line was indicated on the diagram.

If however you find yourself running a stage such as the one described, do everyone at the match a favor and issue the "Stop" command if you think the shooter is too close, and you have time. I'd rather issue the reshoot, than have to perform first aid....

Good stuff.

On top of everything else, I was trying to stay on my toes for the moment he realized how far past the fault line he was (I figured when he looked up and saw the plates). Having just read the "Uprange of the RO" thread, it was fresh on my mind...

This is most certainly my first encounter with 10.5.17, outside of the classroom. (I guess most folks are using barricades!) As with the other rules (thus far), I think once was enough to make my response as RO a natural one and not one where I'm sitting there "thinking"...

Edited September 11, 2012 by Sin-ster

[sperman]

I had this happen a couple of years ago. I felt like it was safer to stop the shooter before the shot was fired. No reason for either of us to take a chance with splatter. (Yes, the real problem was the course design, but that wasn't within my control.)

Here is the thread:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=134682

[Flexmoney]

Oh.... had one like this. We had a wall that was downrange, as a vision barrier. Lets say it was 5y from the steel. The fault line was weeelll back from that.

Our shooter was new to USPSA, but had shot some IDPA. In IDPA, the shooter was used to using/shooting from the walls (cover). The shooter ran well outside of the shooting area and right up to the wall to engage the steel.

[Sparky]

I've been shooting this great sport of ours since 1979. Got my first RO card

in 1983. I've designed more stages than I care to think about. But, we all

know that a stage on paper rarely looks the same on the ground, unless its

really simple.

I agree with Mactiger. Design and set up the stage correctly and put in proper

fault lines and barriers to make sure a shooter cannot engage steel closer than

the rule book says. I usually do not put steel any closer than 10 yards.

If a shooter violates the fault line or barrier for steel, then the RO has to

make a decision as to what action to take. Safety First. We have to be fair

and consistent, but also enforce the rules. There are alot of gamers in this

sport and always have been and that is fine unless the rules are broken.

However, in this situation I don't believe a safety violation has occurred on

the steel until a shot has been fired, especially since the distance is close

to the rule book distance, but inside it. The shooter can and sometimes does

realize they are outside the fault line and step back in before they fire a

shot. I don't like talking to the shooter during the stage unless I have to

but, again Safety First. Stage design is the key to this, Period! Make it

difficult for the shooter to violate the fault line or barrier for steel.

And make sure in the walk through with the squad you point out these things.