tobydog Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Hi All! As the new safety director at our local club, a situation has come up I can't find a ruling on. A competitor has a 2 round shell holder mounted on the forearm of his shotgun in front of the bolt handle. During our last 3-gun, the 2 shells started to move towards the moving bolt. I've requested that he move or discontinue use, he says he'll turn the shells around so the "business" end of the round is facing him. I feel this is unsafe but can't find a ruling to back me up. Others have them mounted there also, but at an angle. Any help will be appreciated, Thanks, Tobydog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 Hi All! As the new safety director at our local club, a situation has come up I can't find a ruling on. A competitor has a 2 round shell holder mounted on the forearm of his shotgun in front of the bolt handle. During our last 3-gun, the 2 shells started to move towards the moving bolt. I've requested that he move or discontinue use, he says he'll turn the shells around so the "business" end of the round is facing him. I feel this is unsafe but can't find a ruling to back me up. Others have them mounted there also, but at an angle. Any help will be appreciated, Thanks, Tobydog. What about this do you feel is unsafe? The position of the shells? The age/wear condition of the shell holder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobydog Posted August 8, 2004 Author Share Posted August 8, 2004 Nik, I guess the fact that the shells are pointed at his face and moving in the holder makes me nervous. As I said, I'm new to being a safety person and am probably being over-cautious, but would rather error on the cautious side of things. The holder is close enough that if they slid too far the bolt handle could hit the shells. If no one else sees a problem, I'll it go. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted August 8, 2004 Share Posted August 8, 2004 I don't see a problem. In the extraordinarily unlikely event that one of the shells' primers was ignited, it wouldn't do much ... eye protection would be a good thing, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 I've requested that he move or discontinue use, he says he'll turn the shells around so the "business" end of the round is facing him. I feel this is unsafe but can't find a ruling to back me up. Tobydog, first and foremost, a warm welcome to the BE Forums, and in particular to the IPSC rules section. Now to answer your question, the rule which you might apply is: 10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty, failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master must be notified as soon as possible. Although none of us here have actually seen the device to which you refer or the manner in which it was attached to the shotgun, you are the Safety Director for your club, so you must base your decision and safety calls on your conscience. If you believe that the shells were mounted unsafely, my advice is to ask the competitor nicely, then to urge him firmly, then to insist unequivocally that he comply with your request. Safety is a preventative measure and, using an analogy, it's installing water sprinklers before a fire, not calling the fire department when the building is already ablaze. As an aside, although we have a revised rule now, I've never needed a specific rule to support my primary concern, namely eye protection. If a competitor comes to my stage and wants to shoot with "John Lennon" glasses, I will prevent him until he buys, borrows or steals adequate eye protection. No, I'm not his mother, but I cannot, in good conscience, knowingly allow a competitor to risk his eyesight on my watch. If he wants to live dangerously, he can do so when I'm not around or he can request another RO (and I will stand down). Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 Toby, I commend you for your diligence. Like Rhino, I don't see the problem. Most of those shell holders were designed so you easily reload the chamber in the case you ran the gun dry. Shells usually move in 'em a bit when you're shooting the gun. I've never actually had shells come out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobydog Posted August 9, 2004 Author Share Posted August 9, 2004 Thanks for the welcome, Vince, and to all for the suggestions. I'm going to keep an eye on this and probably insist on his changing the angle of the holder. One thing we do INSIST on is eye and ear protection for all, competitors and spectators. Don't need any accidents, like you say, safety is a preventative measure. Tobydog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted August 9, 2004 Share Posted August 9, 2004 tobydog Firstly I'll add my welcome to these forums. If I believed that the shells could move to a position where the primers could be struck by the bolt I would ask the competitor to move them. Otherwise, if the primers are not likely to be struck then I wouldn't have a problem and I wouldn't be bothered as to which direction they were facing. In addition to Rule 10.6.1 that Vince has quoted there are also the rules below. If the primers can be struck it is my opinion that these rules would be infringed. Rule 5.2.4 Ammunition and speed loading devices, must be carried or worn on the competitor in safely designed pouches, pockets, loops, clips or other suitable retention devices unless otherwise specified in the course description. Loops or clips fitted to the shotgun stock, fore-end or receiver, or to a sling fitted to the shotgun, to hold individual cartridges are specifically allowed. Rule 5.1.6 Shotguns must be serviceable and safe. Range Officers may demand examination of a competitor’s shotgun or related equipment, at any time, to check they are functioning safely. If any such item is declared unserviceable or unsafe by a Range Officer, it must be withdrawn from the match until the item is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobydog Posted August 10, 2004 Author Share Posted August 10, 2004 Thanks, Neil. Hopefully with all these suggestions, I can alleviate my concerns with this individual without a major problem occuring. Tobydog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingerjg Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 it better not be me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 I just put together a holder that positions the shells horizontally in elastic loops just in front of the ejection port. Test fired it tonight, and was not suprised that the shells move slightly forward under recoil. They slide deeper into the elastic, and away from the bolt. I'm not saying his works like mine, but a careful test OFF the clock will tell you if the rounds are going to get close to the bolt handle. I think you owe him the chance to prove if there is really a problem, before you tell him what he can do with his gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobydog Posted August 11, 2004 Author Share Posted August 11, 2004 Wide45, I have seen the shotgun after he ran a course, and that when we found the shells sliding towards the bolt. If I hadn't seen that, I probably wouldn't have thought anything about it. But others also noticed this and had concerns also. Not trying to cause a big problem, but looking for opinions. Stingerjg, haven't looked at yours that close,....yet!! Should I??? (Nice pic on your bio page) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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