One foot in, one foot out. Are you in or out?

[Supermoto]

Maybe this is the month that somebody will say, "You know, it's time we stop using the old 'small range' cop-out and actually design some good stages that comport with the spirit of free-style course design, instead of running from box to box like we did back in '87."

The range isn't wide enough to safely shoot steel from the FFZ zone so they have to use a box to limit where you can shoot it.

its the first stage in this video.

http://youtu.be/jDEsUh3X26g

Edited July 19, 2012 by Supermoto

[Nik Habicht]

Nik's interpretation is interesting. Is it something that you heard from NROI, Nik?

I try to think of it as: 1) you are "in" where ever you are touching, or were touching before touching someplace else, and 2)shooting "in" any area means you are not supposed to be "in" any other.

So: Shooting with both feet in one zone - obvious.

Shooting with one foot down and the other in the air - you're shooting only from where you are touched down.

Shooting with one foot down in and one foot down out - you're both in and out and procedurals will be due for shots taken on targets only allowed from one or the other zones.

Shooting with both feet in the air - pretty doggone rare, but I'd say that you are still where you were when you took off, and not yet where you will land, so shots on target allowed from the first zone are OK, but not the second.

Just my thoughts.

Yes, I heard it from an NROI RMI during the last level 1 class I audited. Thinking about it, it's easiest to decide whether penalties apply when approaching it this way. In the example here -- do we have three clearly defined shooting areas? Boxes A & B, and the free fire zone? Is the FFZ clearly defined, so that it essentially becomes (a much larger) Box C? Do one or more of the fault lines defining Box A and Box B, also define Box C?

Now it's pretty easy to determine.....

From a stage builder/bullet proofing perspective -- one might want to build the stage in such a manner that there is an "out of bounds" area separating Box A from Box C, and Box C from Box B.....

Put 2-3 feet between them, and now you've solved the challenge of calling the foot faults appropriately....

[Nik Habicht]

Lets not turn this into a poorly written WSB debate or course design. We're working with what we're working with.

Maybe this is the month that somebody will say, "You know, it's time we stop using the old 'small range' cop-out and actually design some good stages that comport with the spirit of free-style course design, instead of running from box to box like we did back in '87."

Yep. Locally, while we sometimes use boxes to define a start position more easily, they are typically part of the free fire zone.....

And I don't know that the use of boxes in that manner gives us anything that "feet or hands on XXx" or "Standing anywhere in the free fire zone" doesn't.....

[Nik Habicht]

Maybe this is the month that somebody will say, "You know, it's time we stop using the old 'small range' cop-out and actually design some good stages that comport with the spirit of free-style course design, instead of running from box to box like we did back in '87."

The range isn't wide enough to safely shoot steel from the FFZ zone so they have to use a box to limit where you can shoot it.

its the first stage in this video.

http://youtu.be/jDEsUh3X26g

That reminds me -- Central Jersey recently renovated it's pits, turning 6 75 yard deep by 35 yard wide pits into 16 smaller pits. During that process, our dirt bermed USPSA pits shrunk to ~30 feet wide. Setting up for the Mid-Atlantic Sectional, it took an engineer, an RM, and a couple builders almost an hour to ensure that poppers placed along the left berm were far enough from the free fire zone to be a legal engagement.....

We needed half walls instead of fault line to make it work....

[Poppa Bear]

Nik this is where sometimes a level one exemption comes in handy. It would be nice a level two or higher if you could specify "Must be engaged from box A" while engaging steel in situations like that.

[cas]

Maybe this is the month that somebody will say, "You know, it's time we stop using the old 'small range' cop-out and actually design some good stages that comport with the spirit of free-style course design, instead of running from box to box like we did back in '87."

I'll send you the dimensions of the range, I'm sure they'd be glad to have some new ideas.

its the first stage in this video.

I'm not even talking about that range, but the other one where this comes up all the time.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cas

[Nik Habicht]

Nik this is where sometimes a level one exemption comes in handy. It would be nice a level two or higher if you could specify "Must be engaged from box A" while engaging steel in situations like that.

I disagree -- that would have dumbed down the stage. Ultimately, I think the shooters were well served by the extra time we took with a measuring tape and some half-height walls as a physical barrier to prevent them from getting too close.....

[cas]

(Example; course requires shots from box A, the FF zone and box B )

I shoot in box A, I jump out of box A and land with one foot in the FF zone and one foot in box B;

(both feet landing simultaneously for the sake of our discussion)

I am OUT of box A.

But am I in the FF zone or in box B?

Does anyone have an answer to this question that's actually an answer to this question? (rather than 30 ways this question should have been avoided)

[Nik Habicht]

(Example; course requires shots from box A, the FF zone and box B )

I shoot in box A, I jump out of box A and land with one foot in the FF zone and one foot in box B;

(both feet landing simultaneously for the sake of our discussion)

I am OUT of box A.

But am I in the FF zone or in box B?

Does anyone have an answer to this question that's actually an answer to this question? (rather than 30 ways this question should have been avoided)

Yes. You can't fault any zone while engaging targets to be shot in from that zone.....

Despite the different labels you really have three contiguous boxes....

[DarthMuffin]

I think the problem here is just poor stage descriptions. There is no such thing as a "free fire zone" in the USPSA rules. Call the starting box "Box A" and the area outside "Box B" (or Shooting Area B if you prefer). State that specific targets need to be engaged from specific boxes/areas, and it's fixed. There are clear definitions of what is in or out of a shooting area/box in the rules.

[remoandiris]

State that specific targets need to be engaged from specific boxes/areas, and it's fixed.

Doesn't that remove the freestyle, shoot em as you see em, aspect of USPSA matches?

[Nik Habicht]

Yes. And that's the whole problem with the stage in question.....

,,,,as Carmoney pointed out....

[Poppa Bear]

Nik this is where sometimes a level one exemption comes in handy. It would be nice a level two or higher if you could specify "Must be engaged from box A" while engaging steel in situations like that.

I disagree -- that would have dumbed down the stage. Ultimately, I think the shooters were well served by the extra time we took with a measuring tape and some half-height walls as a physical barrier to prevent them from getting too close.....

I am glad you were able to make it work. I know and understand the reason for the exemption ending at level 1, but I hate to see good stages get dismissed just because you cannot legally restrict access to the steel.

[Nik Habicht]

Good stages are freestyle. Any kind of level 1 exemption being taken makes it an o.k. stage at best. And yes, I've taken advantage of level 1 exemptions both as a stage designer and as a match director -- at level 1 matches, where the whole thing is built, shot, and torn down in the same day.

At a level 2, the competitors deserve better -- and that hour was time well spent....

[Skydiver]

At a level 2, the competitors deserve better -- and that hour was time well spent....

+1.

And more experienced shooters will also recognize that effort that transforms an okay Level I stage to a very nice Level II stage. Often they will complement you on it, if complements is what you are after. Personally, I go for the extra challenge it gives the shooter. A freestyle stage gives more options to the shooter, and so now the shooter has the added challenge of choosing a way of shooting the course that takes advantages of their strengths and avoids their weaknesses. They aren't forced to "just do it this way".