One foot in, one foot out. Are you in or out?

[cas]

Looking to get some insight into a reoccurring issue/argument. Due to range size at one local club they have to use lots of shooting boxes. The argument comes up periodically as to what's "in" or "out" of a box.

One side says one foot in the box, the other in the free fire zone is "out of the box" and in the FF zone. (couldn't you argue that in the other direction as well?)

The other side says you can't be "out of the box" if your other foot is clearly still in the box.

If it were a foot fault out of bounds then one foot out counts, that's clearly in the rules, but this isn't really the same thing.

??? ???

[Rambo]

Since the boxes are just small shootings areas all the normal foot fault rules would apply.

[Postal Bob]

But this doesn't involve fault lines. The COF states "start in box A, then step into the free fire zone, and engage all targets". So is one foot into the free fire zone, and one still in the box count as being in the free fire zone? Or do both feet have to be in the free fire zone before engaging targets?

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

You can't have it both ways. Any part out is out. 10.2.1

[mjohn]

Yep. 10.2.1 it is.

[cas]

You can't have it both ways. Any part out is out. 10.2.1

(Example; course requires shots from box A, the FF zone and box B )

I shoot in box A, I jump out of box A and land with one foot in the FF zone and one foot in box B;

(both feet landing simultaneously for the sake of our discussion)

I am OUT of box A.

But am I in the FF zone or in box B?

Which am I "out" of?

"Any part is enough" sounds like that IS both ways and the reason it doesn't make any sense in this case. The reasons some are arguing you can't have one foot in and one foot out. I seems like common sense.

10.2.1 deals with being out of bounds, where you can't legally shoot from. This isn't that.

Edited July 18, 2012 by cas

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

10.2.1 deals with being out of bounds, where you can't legally shoot from. This isn't that.

Read the whole thing and tell me it does not apply again.

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting.

(Emphasis added by me)

If you are supposed to engage from Box A and then enter free fire zone, if your foot is touching outside the box (Part of your foot) while shooting from the box are you getting a penalty or not?

Outside the box is in the free fire. 10.2.1

You are not in box B until both feet are in the box. If the two boxes are close enough together that you can straddle them, it is poor course design. One foot in the box, one foot in the air, the foot planted is the box you are in

Edited July 18, 2012 by Round_Gun_Shooter

[Poppa Bear]

It depends on the WSB.

Must be engaged from Box ____ means both feet in Box _____ or at least other foot not touching anything outside of Box _____.

Must be engaged from ______, or _______ means as long as both feet are in one, the other, or both things are good.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

You can't have it both ways. Any part out is out. 10.2.1

(Example; course requires shots from box A, the FF zone and box B )

I shoot in box A, I jump out of box A and land with one foot in the FF zone and one foot in box B;

(both feet landing simultaneously for the sake of our discussion)

I am OUT of box A.

But am I in the FF zone or in box B?

Which am I "out" of?

In this part, you are in the Free Fire zone. You faulted box B

[sperman]

You can't have it both ways. Any part out is out. 10.2.1

(Example; course requires shots from box A, the FF zone and box B )

I shoot in box A, I jump out of box A and land with one foot in the FF zone and one foot in box B;

(both feet landing simultaneously for the sake of our discussion)

I am OUT of box A.

But am I in the FF zone or in box B?

Is box B part of the free fire Zone? That needs to be made clear in the WSB.

[cas]

It depends on the WSB.

Must be engaged from Box ____ means both feet in Box _____ or at least other foot not touching anything outside of Box _____.

Must be engaged from ______, or _______ means as long as both feet are in one, the other, or both things are good.

LMAO… they NEVER say that. Normally they just say you have to shoot them here, here and here.

Lets not turn this into a poorly written WSB debate or course design. We're working with what we're working with.

"You are not in box B until both feet are in the box." Well you know that's not right, because both feet don't ever have to be in the box, just one with the other not touching elsewhere.

10.2.1 doesn't answer whether I'm in the FF zone or box B (no matter how crappy the stage design or WSB is)

"Is box B part of the free fire Zone? "

Box B is box B.

Box A is box A.

The free fire zone is the space between A&B.

(as it pertains to my example anyway)

I'd be interested in a ruling if there was no free fire zone either, just box A and B and… fault space(?? what would you call that lol) between them.

Edited July 19, 2012 by cas

[Chills1994]

This is one of the things where I wish the rulebook had pics.

[Nik Habicht]

There is no box. There are four fault lines forming a square or rectangle. The relevant question is "Was the shooter faulting a line while shooting?" If so, procedurals are assessed for that infraction....

[sperman]

If the free fire zone excludes boxes A and B, then firing a shot at a target designated to be engaged from the free fire zone would be a foot fault, IMO.

Unfortunately, it needs to be clearly described in the WSB. if there is no WSB, then ask the question during the walkthrough. The only way for this to be applied consistently is for whoever is running the match to make sure everyone is doing it the same way.

You can't ask for an answer from the rulebook, and then wave off the fact that this should be covered in the WSB (as described by the rulebook.)

[shootingchef]

Not again. Beat this dead horse again...let's all just jump in the air while shooting......

[Poppa Bear]

It depends on the WSB.

Must be engaged from Box ____ means both feet in Box _____ or at least other foot not touching anything outside of Box _____.

Must be engaged from ______, or _______ means as long as both feet are in one, the other, or both things are good.

LMAO… they NEVER say that. Normally they just say you have to shoot them here, here and here.

Lets not turn this into a poorly written WSB debate or course design. We're working with what we're working with.

"You are not in box B until both feet are in the box." Well you know that's not right, because both feet don't ever have to be in the box, just one with the other not touching elsewhere.

10.2.1 doesn't answer whether I'm in the FF zone or box B (no matter how crappy the stage design or WSB is)

"Is box B part of the free fire Zone? "

Box B is box B.

Box A is box A.

The free fire zone is the space between A&B.

(as it pertains to my example anyway)

I'd be interested in a ruling if there was no free fire zone either, just box A and B and… fault space(?? what would you call that lol) between them.

If they say have to engage _________ from ______, and _____ from _____, then both feet need to be in the shooting area or the one foot cannot faulting by touching outside the shooting area. That is why how the WSB is written is so important. That is what defines what the shooting areas are.

[kevin c]

Nik's interpretation is interesting. Is it something that you heard from NROI, Nik?

I try to think of it as: 1) you are "in" where ever you are touching, or were touching before touching someplace else, and 2)shooting "in" any area means you are not supposed to be "in" any other.

So: Shooting with both feet in one zone - obvious.

Shooting with one foot down and the other in the air - you're shooting only from where you are touched down.

Shooting with one foot down in and one foot down out - you're both in and out and procedurals will be due for shots taken on targets only allowed from one or the other zones.

Shooting with both feet in the air - pretty doggone rare, but I'd say that you are still where you were when you took off, and not yet where you will land, so shots on target allowed from the first zone are OK, but not the second.

Just my thoughts.

[cas]

Not again. Beat this dead horse again...let's all just jump in the air while shooting......

Okay, then what was the answer last time?

[Poppa Bear]

Nik's interpretation is interesting. Is it something that you heard from NROI, Nik?

I try to think of it as: 1) you are "in" where ever you are touching, or were touching before touching someplace else, and 2)shooting "in" any area means you are not supposed to be "in" any other.

So: Shooting with both feet in one zone - obvious.

Shooting with one foot down and the other in the air - you're shooting only from where you are touched down.

Shooting with one foot down in and one foot down out - you're both in and out and procedurals will be due for shots taken on targets only allowed from one or the other zones.

Shooting with both feet in the air - pretty doggone rare, but I'd say that you are still where you were when you took off, and not yet where you will land, so shots on target allowed from the first zone are OK, but not the second.

Just my thoughts.

That one could be tricky. I look at it two ways. Leaping out of the shooting area and engaging targets while still in the air, legal shots. Leaping into the shooting area and engaging targets while still in the air, legal as long as you land in the shooting area.

[Supermoto]

There is no box. There are four fault lines forming a square or rectangle. The relevant question is "Was the shooter faulting a line while shooting?" If so, procedurals are assessed for that infraction....

I agree with this. If the WSB says you have to shoot steel from the box and paper from outside the box. If you are shooting paper with one foot in the box and one out, you are still have a foot in and that should be a fault, just as if you had a foot outside the box and shot the steel. When you use the same fault line to delineate 2 different area, the penalty side will change depending on the targets, but it doesn't go away

[Chills1994]

Not again. Beat this dead horse again...let's all just jump in the air while shooting......

Okay, then what was the answer last time?

i suppose you could do a search with my screenname and maybe the keyword "box".

That might lead you to a much heated thread that IIRC got locked down.

I had the same reaction as shootingchef "this topic again?"

EDIT: i am hoping that one day forum software gets smart enough to search through the archives before openly publishing a new thread on a topic such as this one. Once you hit post or submit, it comes back with "There are already 7 threads and 142 posts on that topic already. Here are the search results. Your new thread will saved into draft form until you have read the search results. Have a nice day!"

Edited July 19, 2012 by Chills1994

[Chills1994]

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97606&hl=box&st=0

[Skydiver]

Look on the bright side, with the archived Front Sight now online, maybe somebody has half a chance of linking to the legendary "Air Munson" story.

[Carmoney]

Lets not turn this into a poorly written WSB debate or course design. We're working with what we're working with.

Maybe this is the month that somebody will say, "You know, it's time we stop using the old 'small range' cop-out and actually design some good stages that comport with the spirit of free-style course design, instead of running from box to box like we did back in '87."

[vluc]

EDIT: i am hoping that one day forum software gets smart enough to search through the archives before openly publishing a new thread on a topic such as this one. Once you hit post or submit, it comes back with "There are already 7 threads and 142 posts on that topic already. Here are the search results. Your new thread will saved into draft form until you have read the search results. Have a nice day!"

DRIFT: There is forum software that does this when you are starting a new thread, noticed it over on the android boards.