3-Gun Nationals and Pigeon Flippers

[Religious Shooter]

Maybe I was misreading the stage diagrams, but what happened to the pigeon flippers that were supposed to be in a couple of stages?

http://www.uspsa.org/results/2004/US_Three...gun_Stage_1.pdf

http://www.uspsa.org/results/2004/US_Three...tol_Stage_1.pdf

Are USPSA rules somehow disallowing them? (If so, THAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED )

[sargenv]

I heard that they had trouble keeping the clays together for the flippers. That's another reason you saw bags of charcoal at certain stages, they were thinking about using that instead of the clays. When they were unsuccessful with those, well, they made them static clays. I would have liked seeing clays flipping into the air, but oh well..

Vince

[ErikW]

On one of the first stages the ROs shot, Pepper Poppers provided too much momentum and leverage and accelerated the charcoal briquettes to 60 mph and beyond the 180 in about one half of a second. So US Poppers went in place of the PP.

On the pistol/shotgun stage with the door, swinger, and trolly, where you were supposed to shoot 3 poppers and 3 clays/charcoals, a certain RO who shall not be named was the first shooter and he ignored the disappearing targets before the slugs.

The same RO shooter was first again on the next stage, the shotgun/pistol side-to-side with the low tombstone-shaped port on the left. And again he ignored the flipped, disappearing charcoal.

After a few more ROs did this, the M.D. decided if the pre-match RO shooters weren't going for the disappearing targets, the real-match shooters wouldn't go for them, and he replaced them with static targets.

Edited July 6, 2004 by Erik Warren

[Neil Beverley]

On one of the first stages the ROs shot, Pepper Poppers provided too much momentum and leverage and accelerated the charcoal briquettes to 60 mph and beyond the 180 in about one half of a second. So US Poppers went in place of the PP.

On the pistol/shotgun stage with the door, swinger, and trolly, where you were supposed to shoot 3 poppers and 3 clays/charcoals, a certain RO who shall not be named was the first shooter and he ignored the disappearing targets before the slugs.

The same RO shooter was first again on the next stage, the shotgun/pistol side-to-side with the low tombstone-shaped port on the left. And again he ignored the flipped, disappearing charcoal.

After a few more ROs did this, the M.D. decided if the pre-match RO shooters weren't going for the disappearing targets, the real-match shooters wouldn't go for them, and he replaced them with static targets.

Unless disappearing frangible targets are declared as being worth double points (i.e. 10 points) then they are likely to be (should be?) ignored by all serious competitors. This particularly applies when you have to reload extra rounds to complete the C of F (or the shotgun element of it).

[Liota]

At the Texas State 3-gun we used the flippers on a combination pistol/shotgun stage. It worked out well and didn't take all that much time. I think Don Bednorz took at least three of the flippers and still finished well on the stage, first, I believe.

In the interest of what should be used with the flippers, try rabbits. They are heavier and don't break as easily when thrown or not hit. I got to re-use a couple of them after careful examination for breaks, chips or cracks.

Liota

[Bronco]

I wouldn't call them flippers at the Texas 3 gun more like a slinger. they went to one side or the other usually behind a wall or other obstruction.

[ErikW]

Neil, you bring up a great point. Where are all the shotgun speed shoots that require 9 or fewer rounds? Not in the U.S. that's for sure. Six poppers with three flipped clays would be cool and the clays would be worth engaging.

[Neil Beverley]

Neil, you bring up a great point. Where are all the shotgun speed shoots that require 9 or fewer rounds? Not in the U.S. that's for sure. Six poppers with three flipped clays would be cool and the clays would be worth engaging.

Erik

For shotgun the rules state a max of 8 rounds for a short course. This is based on Standard Division being set at 9 rounds in the gun so a short course leaves you with a spare round. If 9 rounds then many a short course could end up as being vitually Virginia Count because it's not worth reloading and re-engaging if there is an unexpected miss, the HF means it would often be better to take the miss.

1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 8 rounds to complete and no more than 2 shooting locations.

and

1.2.1.4 The recommended balance for an IPSC match is a ratio of 3 Short Courses to 2 Medium Courses to 1 Long Course.

As I understand it there haven't been many (any?) USPSA stand alone shotgun matches. In light of this the shotgun stages being set up tend to be only a high round count. However, elsewhere, where shotgun matches have regularly been run as stand alone matches there is a balance of stages roughly in line with 1.2.1.4. I know there are stand alone SG matches in the US outside of the USPSA and some of those seem to have Short Courses.

The British Open last month had one stage with just 2 targets and with an unloaded start. On it's own as a stage not much but across a balanced match of 15 stages it sat well enough. The match was around 170 rounds overall.

I've just started to review a Level III Hungarian shotgun match with 20 stages and 229 rounds (107 rounds of slug). That match has around 9 or 10 Short Courses.

It would seem from your comment that you would welcome some (more) Short Courses?

Kurt Miller has shot 2 different matches in Europe and I think he would agree that some of the short stages have still prresented a good challenge. Fast and furious. On the other hand I willingly admit that I've shot some stages that have been as boring as hell and just padding for lazy match organisers. That's the way it goes sometimes.

[hopalong]

Neil,

I tried to use the double points for disapearing targets (flipped Clay/charcoal)

in the Mississippi 3-gun but our Fine scoring program no matter how we tried to go around it would not take it. (something else to fix in EZWinscore? or a new program?)

But that same reason you stated was the very reason I wanted to double the points

of those targets, to make the shooters shoot at them for the stage points.

Also, At the Ms 3-gun we had 5 stages, 1-12 round slug stage, 1- 23 round field course, 1 20 round( in 3 strings) standards that make it a tricky speed shoot, 1-8 round field course with targets worth double to increase match points and 1-13 round field course. in all this I had No/Zero complaints about tomany or not enough shotgun stages or shooting, as a matter of fact I got many comments about the shotgun shooting being emphasized over reloading. Help me out here KURT, how did you like it?

But as we all know, the rules are a test bed and IMOH so is the scoring program.

here is my suggestion on them. Keep EZWinscore for single gun matches, Find someone and I would think we have some good program writers to write a good usable scoring program especially for Multi-gun stages and/or matches.

Thanks for your time, and input with time and effort all this will get straightend up let's not get impatient.

Sam Keen

[Neil Beverley]

I tried to use the double points for disapearing targets (flipped Clay/charcoal)

in the Mississippi 3-gun but our Fine scoring program no matter how we tried to go around it would not take it.  (something else to fix in EZWinscore? or a new program?)

But that same reason you stated was the very reason I wanted to double the points

of those targets, to make the shooters shoot at them for the stage points.

Sam

The short term solution is to "trick" EZWinscore by treating any target that you want to score double as 2 targets. If hit score both, if missed treat both as missed.

You would need to post a clear explanation of this for all competitors to read, and on the relevant stage itself would be good, and also where the scores are posted.

You also need to decide whether you convert the single hit into two on the stage by the RO or whether the stats officer deals with it.

I know it's not ideal but it does work and the stage scores/factors end up as accurately representing the intention. What it does do is buy time while the necessary changes within EZWin can be sorted out.

with time and effort all this will get straightend up let's not get impatient

A voice of reason. Amen!

[kurtm]

Hopalong did have a fairly nice mix of stages for shotgun. It was fairly reminicent of European shoots, like Neil posted. I do like the occational speed shoot but if I had my rathers I would shoot more medium to longer field courses. Neil is right some of the stand and shoots are deceptive and can be quite challenging, but unless it has some movement, like maybe picking the gun up off a table, or an unloaded start, it is more like just running a plate rack. One of my favorite stand and shoots was down in Mississippi where you had large ( poppers) and small ( clays) in the same course of fire, forcing fast and slow sections of the "speed shoot". As for fling targets I like the challange, but they have to be bonus targets in order for them to be worth shooting at. KURTM