Malfuction clearing

[Jim Norman]

We had to draw a line somewhere, and 2 minutes was the amount of time the Rules Committee believes is when even a 32 round COF has been zeroed due to excess time, so what's the point in allowing more time?

Actually, depending upon when the jam occurs, no amount of time will actually zero a stage. You may have an absurdly low hit factor, but a 160 point stage shot in 2 minutes, all A's is still a 1.33 which is better than a zero.

Of course that assumes that the gun was cleared and the last shot was fired, now if the jam occurs at 15 seconds and there is one shot not fired, then the HF would be 9.66, but as I said it all depends upon where the jam occurs.

If I fail to engage 4 targets, that is a Zero, 10 point procedural, 2 mikes, -20, and the 10 points I didn't get for the two A's. So clearing the jam can be critical.

By the way, is there a Jam Clock now? When does it start and who starts it?

We have Sammy Shooter on the COF, he shoots, he jams, I now in addition to watching for all the safety violations am required to note the position of the sweep second hand on my watch and the minute hand and while watching the shooter also keep track of the time? Lets say I stop him claiming his two minutes was up and he says no way! Is this subject to arbitration? Prove the time. The shooter is entitled to a reshoot if the timing device is faulty or records a time that cannot be substantiated. Does the RO carry a stopwatch? Does the RO to signal the ARO to start a stopwatch when a jam occurs? Do I simply decide that two minutes is up and slap the timer and take the last split away as the recorded time of the last shot fired? Maybe we should have an upper time limit on a stage, set all timers to 5 minutes or three minutes PAR, if you can’t shoot the stage in that allowed time, you are done regardless of whether you jam or just shoot too slow for the rest of us speed demons.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Jim

[Skywalker]

We have Sammy Shooter on the COF, he shoots, he jams, I now in addition to watching for all the safety violations am required to note the position of the sweep second hand on my watch and the minute hand and while watching the shooter also keep track of the time? Lets say I stop him claiming his two minutes was up and he says no way! Is this subject to arbitration? Prove the time.

Easy way to do this: when you suspect the 2-mins time limit is expired, look at the timer, take note of the displayed time, then tap your timer near the microphone.

Next displayed time, minus previously displayed time, is time elapsed to clear malfunction.

Even easier if you have a timer that constantly displays last split...

[Jim Norman]

Sorry, but you are not allowed to back-up a timer to record the time. When you bump the time you have effectively awarded a reshoot to the competitor.

The only time you are allowed to record is the time on the timer, unless I am mistaken. So how do we handle this? I asl again.

By the way, I agree that this solutin would work, but it requires a rule change to allow the RO to back-up the timer. One more rule! Why not just leave it be. How often have we really had a shooter take this long to try and fix a jam?

Or as I said earlier, set a maximum time on all stages of 4 minutes, or some other reasonable arbitrary time and set the timers for PAR.

Jim

[Flexmoney]

Which rule are you quoting that says you can't back up a timer to the last shot fired? (just asking...'cause I don't know that one)

It never takes the two minutes anyway...so why worry? If the shooter takes 5 minutes...it will be easy enough to say they were over two. The two minute rule is just a safety valve, so that Jonnie Dumbazz doesn't sit down on our stage and pout...holding up the whole match. And, Jonnie Tactibilly doesn't "clear the jam at all cost", 'cause he just has to finish nuking the bad guys.

The two minute rule isn't hurting anybody, it is helping ALL THE OTHER SHOOTERS that paid to come shoot a match that day.

(Joey, sorry for the drift.)

[Detlef]

Sorry, but you are not allowed to back-up a timer to record the time. When you bump the time you have effectively awarded a reshoot to the competitor.

pls quote the rule from which you derive this.

--Detlef

[Skywalker]

Sorry, but you are not allowed to back-up a timer to record the time. When you bump the time you have effectively awarded a reshoot to the competitor.

Jim,

I guess I'm reading a different rulebook.

9.10 Official Time

9.10.1 Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to record the official elapsed time of a competitor's attempt at a course of fire. If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

9.10.2 If, in the opinion of an Arbitration Committee, the time credited to a competitor for a course of fire is deemed to be unrealistic, the competitor will be required to reshoot the course of fire (see Rule 9.7.4).

9.10.3 A competitor who reacts to a start signal but, for any reason, does not continue their attempt at the course of fire and fails to have an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range Officer, will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire.

If I'm the RO, and I can "credit an accurate time" to the competitor, I'll do that lawfully.

I guess this goes along the same line as having 4 holes on a target (coming from unpatched target): if I, as RO, can determine the last competitor's hits, I'll score them even if the target was not restored.

If I can determine which was the time of the last shot of the competitor, I'll award it, no matter what happened after that.

E.G. I am ROing a competitor; after last shot I glance at the timer and see 16.35 seconds. The competitor is standing there waiting for commands. I shield the timer behind my back, and in doing so I inadvertently bump it against whatever is hung onto my belt: the timer picks a new shot and records 18.94. I then issue IYAFUASC, and after completion of the holstering process I read the timer: I notice the time has changed. I won't award a reshoot to the competitor: I'll explain him the incident and will record the correct time by backing-up the timer.

Same applies for voluntarily tapping the timer.

[Jim Norman]

9.10 Official Time

9.10.1 Only the timing device operated by a Range Officer must be used to record the official elapsed time of a competitor's attempt at a course of fire. If a timing device is faulty, a competitor whose attempt cannot be credited with an accurate time will be required to reshoot the stage.

E.G. I am ROing a competitor; after last shot I glance at the timer and see 16.35 seconds. The competitor is standing there waiting for commands. I shield the timer behind my back, and in doing so I inadvertently bump it against whatever is hung onto my belt: the timer picks a new shot and records 18.94. I then issue IYAFUASC, and after completion of the holstering process I read the timer: I notice the time has changed. I won't award a reshoot to the competitor: I'll explain him the incident and will record the correct time by backing-up the timer.

Same applies for voluntarily tapping the timer.

I suppose I read this rule as the one. I suppose you can back up the timer, however, what if there are several very short splits prior to your having clicked the timer/ What if you inadvertently bumped the timer between the last shot and the intentional click to check on the two minutes?

I suppose I infered this also because I can't use the timer to verify the number of shos fired since I might have missed one. If I can't verify the number of shots fired because I might have missed one and since we are looking at a shooter that had not yet approached the last shooting position, so I might not have the timer in the most advantaged position to pick-up his last shot fired, since it wasn't supposed to be his last shot. I might miss that shot and the shooter now has a recorded time that is actually several seconds faster than his actual time. Example there are three ports and the shooter's gun craps out on the 3rd port from the end, he was buried in the port and the timer doesn't record his shots. Not normally a problem, he has 12 more shots from the next two ports and on the last position, I will make sure I am on top of him and the timer is held over the wall or wherever it needs to be to get those shots, but since I don't want to bump him when he leaves the port, I don''t get that close, now he ran 5 seconds to get to the position where he actually fired his last shot, his recorded time after looking at the timer is 5 seconds off from his actual time, PLUS the fact that the last 6-8 shots might not have been recorded. that could cut his time a further 2-5 seconds of shooting in the port.

There could be several split times after the actual "Last Shot" recorded, which one do you use? You have no real way of knowing. I guess my main question is how often has this really occurred, where a shooter has broken and just stayed there a ridiculously long time trying to fix his gun?

As an aside, When we run our 3-Gun, non-USPSA match, we realize that some of the stages shooters will take an inordinate amount of time on certain courses, so we set all stages to run a 3 or 3-1/2 minute PAR time. As long as you finish before the beep, you are good to go. We have had people time out ona "Jungle Run", Next year, we'll make the run different so that it is not a concern.

Another problem I see is that I can if I wanted to, shoot a stage and take 15 minutes to shoot a 30 round course as long as I keep shooting. But I can't stop due to a jamb or other malfunction for longer than two minutes. Suppose I came to the line with three mags and a pocket of rounds, i shot the mags dry, safely reholstered and proceeded to reload mags on the clock? Would you apply this rule? Heck i don't know if this is a legal move or not, but if it is, it is a valid question.

[Flexmoney]

Jim,

Your "what ifs" are covered. Either you can accurately determine the time, or you can't.

I guess my main question is how often has this really occurred, where a shooter has broken and just stayed there a ridiculously long time trying to fix his gun?

Apparently, it happens. I think we talked about this before on the forum (but, it would have been a while back).

If it doesn't happen...great. If it does, we now have an option to deal with it...legally...by the book. What's the problem???

As an aside, When we run our 3-Gun, non-USPSA match, we realize that some of the stages shooters will take an inordinate amount of time on certain courses, so we set all stages to run a 3 or 3-1/2 minute PAR time. As long as you finish before the beep, you are good to go. We have had people time out ona "Jungle Run", Next year, we'll make the run different so that it is not a concern.

I think, in effect, you have run that stage as a "fixed time" stage. Or something like that. Which isn't covered in the rule book. Perhaps their needs to be a rule that would allow the Match Director to put a max time on a stage? (Jim, would you start another thread to discuss this issue, please? We are getting further and further from "tools".)

[jhgtyre]

Can't we make a rule in USPSA/IPSC that is similar to the General Prudential Rule in seamanship?... Problem solved, no new rules required.

So how by adding rule are you not creating a new rule? If you create what appear to you to be good general purpose catch-all rules you will have competitors who find loop holes to circumvent those rules. Then someone whines about it and guess what happens?

Your 300 second rule is fine but how is it any better than the two minute rule under discussion? Because it is longer? Because you like it? I guarantee that someone won't like it.

-ld

[Jim Norman]

jhgtyre

Correct, I did ask for a new rule here. Shame on me. I did however try to set it up so that it would act as a single sort of catch all. We are rapidly approaching rule overload. The new book is what? 100 pages plus?

As tothe 300 seconds, the reason that I feel it is better is that there is no arbitrary start point. You get this long to do the stage, no more, regardless of what happens. With the 2 minute rule I have to start the clock when I think the competitor is having a problem, Maybe he has a crappy gun, and it regularly needs to be cleared, do i strat the clock every time his gun jambs? Does he get 15 minutes to shoot hte stage because he clears all his jambs in 30 seconds? As a possible worse case and YES I KNOW IT IS NOT LIKELY, a shooter on a 32 round COF could withthe 2 minute rule take in excess of one hour to shot a course, All he has to do is fire one shot in just under two minutes and do that 32 times. Absurd, I agree, but the new two minute rule allows that to happen! Will the RO still be able to remove the gun from the stage and match? iI don't know, I have not read that fully into the new rules yet.

EricW,

Actually our rules for 3-gun fit on about three pages, they are not too complex. You don't need a lawyer, just a lot of ammo and three working guns. Look for info on our match on our website in the near future.

Jim Norman

[jhgtyre]

So new rules are okay as long as they are your rules. I see.

-ld

[Vince Pinto]

As a possible worse case and YES I KNOW IT IS NOT LIKELY, a shooter on a 32 round COF could withthe 2 minute rule take in excess of one hour to shot a course, All he has to do is fire one shot in just under two minutes and do that 32 times.

Unless the competior has a physical infirmity, Section 10.6 would most likely apply.

Absurd, I agree, but the new two minute rule allows that to happen!

Um, no. The 2 minute rule applies to clearance of malfunctions, not to target engagement.

So new rules are okay as long as they are your rules.  I see.

[Flexmoney]

This is Jim's post from the "tools" thread that I didn't get moved here.

No, I actually would prefer less rules. Sometimes you need to add one to take away two. In fact I have often said that no new law should be allowed to be passed unless it also removes at the very least one other law. And Yes, I have read Animal Farm.

I fail to see where having a repeated failure of my pistol to function and being able to clear it in under two minutes would qualify as USC. (10.6) Lets see, I shoot and get a really bitchin stovepipe under the scope mount on my gun, I manage to clear it, and the incident repeats, maybe for every shot. I would not disagree that something needs to be done, but the two minute rule and USC are not the answer.

Jim