calling shots

[perjohn]

First, let me apologize for starting a thread on a topic that has been discussed extensively on this forum. I'm sure I've come across at least two or three with the same question, but I wanted to ask based on my experiences.

I am a B shooter on my best day, definitely not above hosing the occasional stage here and there. After poring over the wealth of information here, however, I've begun to really concentrate on my sights and calling shots. I've also had a sort of revelation when it comes to my target focus. I only focus on the A zone of the target, and don't really "see" the rest of the target.

As I shoot a stage, shooting only as fast as I can shoot A's, I don't consciously see the sights. I cannot remember a single sight picture when my run is over, but I must be using the sights, because all of my hits are good. If I make a bad shot, however, it's like that unacceptable sight picture interrupts the whole process. I somehow "know" I had a bad hit without really remembering the sight picture. Sometimes this is instantaneous, and sometimes I'm already on the next shot before it registers. Is this right? Is calling your shots something you just know, without really seeing?

I've been told by better shooters than me that they can recall every sight picture after a run. This is discouraging to me, because that's something I just can't do. After reading the last paragraph of Zen and the Art of Hitting Stuff, though, I started thinking that I might be onto something.

[jdlinke]

Is calling your shots something you just know, without really seeing?

I am by no means a very experienced shooter, but when I call my shots I know what my sight alignment/sight picture was when the shot broke. I don't know if that's typical or atypical, though.

Hopefully some of the pros can share their thoughts on this.

[Whoops!]

I know what you mean and would say that really focusing on the front sight and seeing the sight lift and go back to target quickly is one of the big keys for shooting fast and accurately and not having huge down points on some random stage. You can do it, you're just not doing it right now.

[perjohn]

It's when I really make an effort to concentrate on seeing the sights that I experience this. I'm getting A's on targets too far away to point shoot, so i know I'm seeing the sights. I guess I'm asking if it's possible to be on "autopilot", just seeing what you need to see, and only when your subconscious sees something other than what it expects to see does it react.

[Flexmoney]

It's possible, but I hate to tell you that. You might go away thinking your are getting it done in your own special way.

- I can call people's misses from being 20y away from them...just by seeing how the gun moves in their hands.

- I shoot matches without sights on my gun, and know pretty well how things are going when I do.

- I can get a "feel" for if things are off or not.

So, sure...it's possible. But, your are going to have a long row to hoe.

Now, we need to point out that there is a vast difference between making a shot and calling a shot. You can use the sights for both, but using the sights doesn't mean you did both.

Brian has...in the words section on his main sights...the [b[fundamentals[/b] of making a shot. (somebody will likely impress me by finding those and copying them into this thread)

Calling the shot requires knowing what actually happened when you made the shot. It is an observation. I like to break it all apart, so that one can think of the "calling" of the shot as a 3rd person viewing.

Perhaps think of a big Navy ship. The guns are down on the deck, firing away at a target. You are on the bridge of the ship, observing where the shots are going. These are separate processes.

You can make shots with a target focus. And, using your senses (even non-vision) you can likely read a level of feedback/observation and get a call of some sort on your shot(s). However, that will prove to be vague.

Your best feedback is going to come from reading the sights (I am talking calling here, not making the shot). It is your most accurate information, and it is faster than any other method. Why can it be faster?...because with precise vision,you get a greater degree of "knowing". The observation of the sights gives you better feedback. You really know where the bullet is going. This allows you to act with decisiveness. (heck, you will feel less tense too...things will seem to move a bit less frantically, etc...all good things)

[ninemmbill]

Flex answered this better than I could, but I'll add my simple .02 cents.

You can use the sights to make a shot and not remember the sight picture = good

You can use the sights to call a shot and remember the sight picture = better

For me it has come down to an even harder focus on the front sight, and being in the "zone" for every shot.

It's and old video now, but worth watching:

Edited January 28, 2012 by ninemmbill

[perjohn]

Here's how it goes. Eyes find the target (the A zone), gun moves to target. As the gun comes onto target, find the front sight and break the first shot. Sights settle, break the second shot. Now, I know both shots have hit the target (the A zone), but I couldn't tell you WHERE in the A zone. If I break the shot and the sights aren't on the A zone, I know the shot missed, but I couldn't tell you where it landed on the target until I saw it. So, I guess I'm getting enough feedback from the sights to MAKE the shot, but not quite enough to CALL the shot, correct? I'm focusing on the sights, just not enough to know exactly where each shot went, only enough to know if it hit or missed my intended target. When you are CALLING your shots, you will know precisely where each shot is on target, right? For instance, someone calling their shots, going full speed, can know they had one A hit and one high right C hit before they ever see the holes. Or, do they just know that the sights weren't aligned on the A, and make it up without concsciously thinking to themselves, "that shot landed high right", and then making it up.

Thanks for the input!

[Sean Gaines]

Think of it like driving a car, are you aware all the time? Alot of times you are just driving. then you will bring conscious thought into the mix, like I need to turn here, or there is something in the middle of the road, and I need to avoid it, or I need to keep an eye on the signs, because my exit is comming up. Its more like a selective awareness. You can also program before you shoot a stage to be more deliberate on certain targets, like long shots on steel, where you tell yourself to get a crisp sight picture before you release the shot on each peice of steel.

[Jadeslade]

Calling shots is like Flex said. However, and I use an analogy here, because it's a sport I know well, shooting a basketball can be likened to shooting. You can break it down quite a bit-do you look at front rim, back rim, backboard, etc. Once you realize what your aim is, then you practice a lot. After a while it becomes second nature-you don't aim when you are in a game-that is, if you are a real shooter. More interested in range, feet in good position, body in good position. You just shoot. So, back to guns, you have to decide what you are aiming at, see what sight picture you have, and then-lots of shooting live rounds. There is no substitute for "trigger time", "time under the gun", etc. Dry fire is great. But there is no substitute for sending lots of shots downrange, once you know what your aim point and sight picture are. Moving around, and shooting like we do, to make a fast makeup, you have to practice a lot, and it is unconscious.

[brianhansen]

Try this. Look out your window, line up a spot on the window with an object outside, tree, car door etc. look at that spot on the window and really see it. Notice how well you can see the spot in detail and at the same time be aware of its relationship(alignment) with the tree. Next time at the range, do the same thing with your sights and the target. It's amazing how much there is to see.

[perjohn]

You'll have to bear with me, I'm not very good at putting thoughts into words.

I don't shoot with a target focus, I am concentrating on the sights. I put that in the first post to illustrate that I strive to hit the A zone, that is my target. If I am doing my walkthrough, or even dry-firing, I am looking at the A zone. The A zone is my target, I am not "shooting at brown".

Sean, your analogy is dead-on, that is exactly what it's like. I'm just cruising along, aware, but not really paying attention. All of a sudden, there's something in the road(a miss), and I avoid it(make it up). I'm not aware enough to know exactly where my sights were when I broke the shot, only that they were not on the A zone. It's like I'm seeing the sights for every shot, and as long as everything is acceptable, I just keep cruising. Is calling your shots knowing EXACTLY where each shot lands, all the time? Or is it just knowing you missed your intended target?

[Jadeslade]

You have to know where it lands.

[brianhansen]

" Is calling your shots knowing EXACTLY where each shot lands, all the time? "

Yes That's my ultimate goal.

Edited January 28, 2012 by brianhansen

[Sean Gaines]

You'll have to bear with me, I'm not very good at putting thoughts into words.

I don't shoot with a target focus, I am concentrating on the sights. I put that in the first post to illustrate that I strive to hit the A zone, that is my target. If I am doing my walkthrough, or even dry-firing, I am looking at the A zone. The A zone is my target, I am not "shooting at brown".

Sean, your analogy is dead-on, that is exactly what it's like. I'm just cruising along, aware, but not really paying attention. All of a sudden, there's something in the road(a miss), and I avoid it(make it up). I'm not aware enough to know exactly where my sights were when I broke the shot, only that they were not on the A zone. It's like I'm seeing the sights for every shot, and as long as everything is acceptable, I just keep cruising. Is calling your shots knowing EXACTLY where each shot lands, all the time? Or is it just knowing you missed your intended target?

Calling your shots correctly is knowing where your bullet is going when the front sight lifts. you must think that a stage last 20+/-seconds, and maybe half that time you are shooting. So you need to be able to see each shot break and see the front sight lift from your intended target. I know it may feel slow, but we must consider that what you feel is slow, doesn't neccesarily translate to the timer. Now with time you will find that there are some targets that you will have to put more emphasis on a more precise sight alignment, and there will be targets that are up close where you just putting the back end of the gun will be suffecient enough to get 2 "A's" with just using timing of the gun and follow through

Another thing to consider is the relationship between the front sight and the rear, they do not have to be perfectly aligned to know that when you pull the trigger that you will still hit the intended target. at 7yrds and in you can intentionally put the front sight to the right/left of the rear notch, and mis align the front sight where it is high/low inside the rear notch and you still will have a group the size of a fist. This is called "reading the sights". while your are shooting at speed. If you see that the front sight is on the left side of the notch you will know that your shot will be left of the intended target, but if the fiber optic front sight is in the "D" zone with this relationship and you pull the trigger, you will probably hit a charlie or an alpha on the right side of target depending on the distance of the target.

so in essence, there is calling your shots, and also reading your sights, and nowing what is an acceptable front to rear sight relationship to achieve a hit on the intended target. Reading the sights is a much harder skill than calling your shots, imho because there is alot of variables that will effect the preciseness of the shot.

[Merlin Orr]

Some great stuff

And yet More

Edited January 28, 2012 by Merlin Orr

[perjohn]

Thanks to everybody for all of the great insight, and thanks Merlin for the links. I went back and read some of the topics in those, and discovered a few things that really apply to me. Funny thing is, I had read most of those posts at one time or another, but I don't think the information was something I could relate to at that time. Here are a couple that stood out to me. Brian said, "When you fire a shot, the most important thing is to know where it went even though it didn't necessarily go where you intended it to." That is something I am going to work toward. He also said that "your progression will mirror your ability to refine your call". Obviously, my shot calling ability is in it's infancy, but it's encouraging to know that I am progressing. Finally, Steve Anderson said in a post that he was "calling A's, not calling shots". I think that illustrates where I am right now, I know if it does or doesn't hit the A zone, but that's it. I hope that I'm on the right path to refining my shot calling ability, I guess only time will tell. Thanks again!