Flat?

[XRe]

A lot of talk goes on in this forum about guns shooting "flat", but there seems to be a large misunderstanding about what "flat" is, and what it does for you as a shooter. So much so, that I kept threatening to write a blog article about it... Well, it turns out to be a larger topic than a single blog post, so it took me a while to figure out how to approach it correctly...

So, here's the first installment - The World Is Flat

I'm anticipating two or three more articles to round it out, but one of them is tricky to write about, because it's a topic I only have a layman's understanding of (anatomy, chemistry, and physics of the human eye), so that one might take me a bit. Then there'll be a couple more on equipment and how design choices affect the perception of "flat" from the standpoint of the shooter.

And you guys thought this was a simple topic...

[Torogi]

Dave, great article. One thing that came into mind, do you think a softer felt recoil is being perceived as a flat shooter? Since its softer, gripping it to stay flat wont be as hard.

EDIT to add: ->for a non-compensated gun.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Torogi

[XRe]

Dave, great article. One thing that came into mind, do you think a softer felt recoil is being perceived as a flat shooter? Since its softer, gripping it to stay flat wont be as hard.

In my experience, "soft" and "flat" (as experienced by the shooter) don't generally go together - but a softer shooting gun might be perceived to be flatter by a relatively recoil sensitive shooter because they're not getting banged around by the gun. Does that make sense?

In fact, in a non-compensated gun, my experience has been that "flat" seems to depend more on the recoil system in the gun (and the FP stop geometry, if the gun has one), whereas "soft" tends to be more related to the load... but, a gun that appears flat to the shooter is also usually perceived as being less soft to shoot... Within reason - I've shot .45s sprung with a heavy recoil spring that felt sharp in the and and were very flippy, so...

YMMV... I'll get into that more in depth in the next couple articles, though

[Unregistered]

Fantastic article!

I look forward to more, Dave!

I see you meant it when you told me in PM that lots of updates were coming!

Thanks!

[XRe]

I see you meant it when you told me in PM that lots of updates were coming!

[Sarge]

Just checked out your blog.

I get what you are saying about perception and illusion but the flattest Open gun I ever shot was an Infinity IMM belonging to a local shooter. 38SC packed full of 10 gr N350 IIRC. Loudest damn thing I've ever heard in this game by a loong way. Yet the gun felt as though it did not move in my hands and the dot only wiggled a tad.

So in an Open gun that pretty much defined flat for me.

[XRe]

Yet the gun felt as though it did not move in my hands and the dot only wiggled a tad.

That you saw....

More on that phenomenon later... Stay tuned... that's the part that takes some thinkin' on my end on how to write about it....

[Whoops!]

I can help you with that one. The average human only interprets about 30 frames per second. If the time off the glass is less than 1/30 of a second, most people won't see it.

[Reshoot]

Great stuff! I must follow this.

[Sarge]

I'm pretty sure the dot did not leave the glass. As a matter of fact it felt like dry firing.

[XRe]

I can help you with that one. The average human only interprets about 30 frames per second. If the time off the glass is less than 1/30 of a second, most people won't see it.

According the to research I've done on it, that's an apt analogy for some people some of the time - but it doesn't actually accurately describe how vision works (it's not in discrete frames), and that is actually important when you get into explaining why you can do things like call shots - most sources put the cyclic rate of most handguns around .05 seconds, only a very small part of which is useful for calling shots. .05 seconds is equivalent to 20fps, but (based on looking at slo-mo video, the timeframe we use to call shots is really more like .015-.020 seconds... 50-65fps... (or, actually, less). You technically can't see it happen - yet we do see at least a part of it (especially if, say, you shoot an Open gun in the dark - then you really pick up on more of it). But.... you don't see all of it, and the part you need to see happens really quickly....

It doesn't matter how long the dot is off the glass, though you're right, it usually would happen so quickly that most people wouldn't notice it having been gone. It matters what your eye picks up at the precise moment the dot (or the front sight) begins to move.....

But now I'm getting further into what I'll write later, so...

[Flexmoney]

Just checked out your blog.

I get what you are saying about perception and illusion but the flattest Open gun I ever shot was an Infinity IMM belonging to a local shooter. 38SC packed full of 10 gr N350 IIRC. Loudest damn thing I've ever heard in this game by a loong way. Yet the gun felt as though it did not move in my hands and the dot only wiggled a tad.

So in an Open gun that pretty much defined flat for me.

I haven't got a chance to read though here and soak it all in very well yet, ..just cherry picking this post...

Kevin, when those guns first came out, I watched them as various shooters ran them in matches. I noted that it took a rather experienced hand to run those guns well (most I saw shooting them didn't completely fit that category). Here they were with the latest and greatest their money could buy...by all accounts, really great gear...yet I saw that they were actually slow on their splits (FWIW).

It was that "wiggle" that you saw. They were good enough and smart enough to wait to "see" (instead of pulling the trigger blindly), but they were having to wait on the wiggle to calm down.

I doubt they had really practiced with them with regards to their grip/stance. A Burkett timing drill or two would have gave them the info to practice with.

[edit to add] The shooter is part of the gear. (heck, Dave is probably already covering this well...I wish I didn't need to head out the door, and could read up further right now)

[XRe]

It was that "wiggle" that you saw. They were good enough and smart enough to wait to "see" (instead of pulling the trigger blindly), but they were having to wait on the wiggle to calm down.

The "wiggle" (as Flex is describing it, possibly not as Sarge is describing it) is actually another topic, in a way - it works out to inconsistent movement in recoil, which makes it untimeable... which makes it slow... That's another one I have on my list to write about, but isn't actually directly in the scope of this series

[edit to add] The shooter is part of the gear. (heck, Dave is probably already covering this well...I wish I didn't need to head out the door, and could read up further right now)

That's part of what I'm getting into with this, for sure - but maybe not in the angle you're thinking. But you're absolutely right - the shooter is part of the system, and if (s)he isn't doing his/her part (with appropriate technique, focus, etc), the equipment doesn't mean a damn thing to their performance. The first article doesn't get real far into things - I'm trying to force myself to write digestible chunks rather than epic novels, so it's going to take me three or four articles to cover this subject But, read it when you get a chance, and see what you think...

[Whoops!]

I would say that depending on what else is happening when the gun is fired, the wiggle may be acceptable as long as it is only as large as any a zone you are aiming at.

With certain guns I've played with, they only start to wiggle after exerting a certain amount of grip strength. That particular amount of grip strength may minimize total muzzle rise to allow a faster split time with shooting while the sight is wiggling that little bit. In order to eliminate that wiggle with a different recoil spring, the muzzle rise may increase with the same amount of grip strength exerted. Thus, even though all are A zone hits (although the hits without the wiggle may be closer together than the hits with the wiggle), the split is faster with a little wiggle on that particular platform and load.

As a result, it might not be beneficial to completely eliminate the wiggle with every stage; although, I'm not meticulous enough in my record keeping to really know.

[9mmMike]

I have been chasing a flat shooting, high performance 9mm handgun load for a long time. I really started off on this whole subject because I have a short barreled 3.5/8" HK that I use most of the time. One of the first things I noticed when shooting it over full sized handguns was it's propensity to flip alot more than I was accustomed to. After running a couple drills this perceived "flip" is manageable, but I wasn't satisfied. For a long time I thought it was a mechanical shortcoming of the short recoil, short barrel system on the HK. Then I started to get into reloading. Different powders, different bullets, different primers, somewhere in the component selection I felt I could find the answer I was looking for. After MUCH experimentation, I found 7-7.5 grains of HS-6 with 115 or 124 grain FMJ's and WSP's with COAL 1.125-1.155 to be the best of all variables. I got the velocities up in the short barrel to 1200 fps and I can hit point of aim out to 50 feet with no effort. The recoil and flip are all where I want them in regards to velocity. I felt HS6 was the most NO COMPROMISE powder of all. It is available everywhere, it is very consistent (fps deviations were less than 3 in most 10 shot strings with a high of 7 during one test!) It works well with a variety of bullet weights and other handgun calibers, it isn't noisy, or flashy. I know it isn't a competion load for special race guns, but it is a practical do anything load that makes the shorter gun fun to shoot and keep it safe with very respectable performance numbers.

Honarable mentions included with their reason for not working in my gun:

Accurate #5- Too low bullet velocity vs pressure expended

Accurate #7- Too much gas, alot of muzzle flipper stuff and leftover grit in action and barrel

Power Pistol- Too flashy and loud vs. powder charge weight- It just gets louder and more violent as it is pushed-No technical finesse

Longshot- Runner up to HS6, but louder than needed as HS6 makes the same velocities with less noise and flash, less consistent fps dvitaions as high as 40 fps= no bueno

I want to try Winchester Auto Comp and WSF next....

[Sarge]

I have been chasing a flat shooting, high performance 9mm handgun load for a long time. I really started off on this whole subject because I have a short barreled 3.5/8" HK that I use most of the time. One of the first things I noticed when shooting it over full sized handguns was it's propensity to flip alot more than I was accustomed to. After running a couple drills this perceived "flip" is manageable, but I wasn't satisfied. For a long time I thought it was a mechanical shortcoming of the short recoil, short barrel system on the HK. Then I started to get into reloading. Different powders, different bullets, different primers, somewhere in the component selection I felt I could find the answer I was looking for. After MUCH experimentation, I found 7-7.5 grains of HS-6 with 115 or 124 grain FMJ's and WSP's with COAL 1.125-1.155 to be the best of all variables. I got the velocities up in the short barrel to 1200 fps and I can hit point of aim out to 50 feet with no effort. The recoil and flip are all where I want them in regards to velocity. I felt HS6 was the most NO COMPROMISE powder of all. It is available everywhere, it is very consistent (fps deviations were less than 3 in most 10 shot strings with a high of 7 during one test!) It works well with a variety of bullet weights and other handgun calibers, it isn't noisy, or flashy. I know it isn't a competion load for special race guns, but it is a practical do anything load that makes the shorter gun fun to shoot and keep it safe with very respectable performance numbers.

Honarable mentions included with their reason for not working in my gun:

Accurate #5- Too low bullet velocity vs pressure expended

Accurate #7- Too much gas, alot of muzzle flipper stuff and leftover grit in action and barrel

Power Pistol- Too flashy and loud vs. powder charge weight- It just gets louder and more violent as it is pushed-No technical finesse

Longshot- Runner up to HS6, but louder than needed as HS6 makes the same velocities with less noise and flash, less consistent fps dvitaions as high as 40 fps= no bueno

I want to try Winchester Auto Comp and WSF next....

Auto Comp is working well for me so far. MG 121 @1.168 7.2 WAC 169pf. I'll probably run 7.3 to be safe.

[Reshoot]

I have been chasing a flat shooting, high performance 9mm handgun load for a long time. I really started off on this whole subject because I have a short barreled 3.5/8" HK that I use most of the time. One of the first things I noticed when shooting it over full sized handguns was it's propensity to flip alot more than I was accustomed to. After running a couple drills this perceived "flip" is manageable, but I wasn't satisfied. For a long time I thought it was a mechanical shortcoming of the short recoil, short barrel system on the HK. Then I started to get into reloading. Different powders, different bullets, different primers, somewhere in the component selection I felt I could find the answer I was looking for. After MUCH experimentation, I found 7-7.5 grains of HS-6 with 115 or 124 grain FMJ's and WSP's with COAL 1.125-1.155 to be the best of all variables. I got the velocities up in the short barrel to 1200 fps and I can hit point of aim out to 50 feet with no effort. The recoil and flip are all where I want them in regards to velocity. I felt HS6 was the most NO COMPROMISE powder of all. It is available everywhere, it is very consistent (fps deviations were less than 3 in most 10 shot strings with a high of 7 during one test!) It works well with a variety of bullet weights and other handgun calibers, it isn't noisy, or flashy. I know it isn't a competion load for special race guns, but it is a practical do anything load that makes the shorter gun fun to shoot and keep it safe with very respectable performance numbers.

Honarable mentions included with their reason for not working in my gun:

Accurate #5- Too low bullet velocity vs pressure expended

Accurate #7- Too much gas, alot of muzzle flipper stuff and leftover grit in action and barrel

Power Pistol- Too flashy and loud vs. powder charge weight- It just gets louder and more violent as it is pushed-No technical finesse

Longshot- Runner up to HS6, but louder than needed as HS6 makes the same velocities with less noise and flash, less consistent fps dvitaions as high as 40 fps= no bueno

I want to try Winchester Auto Comp and WSF next....

In my 40 caliber, I made the switch from HS6 to WSF two years ago. It was a good move for me. For whatever that is worth.

[9mmMike]

I guess I am looking for the least amount of gas production with the highest velocity potential at the lowest expendable pressure... It is a very much a give and take because it is a small threshold of oppprtunity to be working in..

[G-ManBart]

There is a bit of evidence from the boxing world that was repeated with shooters. They found that when you get punched, or when the gun goes off, your brain essentially "blinks" for a fraction of a second. They determined this by studying brain waves during both activities. The short version was that they found there were two main groups of people...one group had a shorter blink (dwell time, or length), and the second was considerably longer. It's sort of an either/or thing...you're in one group or the other. That would probably account for why some folks like snappier (faster cycling) guns, and other people hate them. I think it would also apply to the perception of flip and front sight/dot rise. If your brain is blinking until after the front sight/dot returns, you won't realize it ever moved, and will think it's really flat shooting.

I show people a demonstration of grip influencing flip all the time...soft grip, the muzzle takes forever to recover, "proper" grip (from our perspective) and it resets so fast you almost can't see it...but I know the front sight goes nearly as high with the proper grip as with a loose grip (maybe not quite, but still more than people would believe). Good stuff...

[XRe]

There is a bit of evidence from the boxing world that was repeated with shooters. They found that when you get punched, or when the gun goes off, your brain essentially "blinks" for a fraction of a second.

Doesn't surprise me - do you have a reference (would like to read about it more, if so)?

The important thing to me is how all the biological stuff coalesces to affect our actual performance - I'm in the middle of my first draft of the next article in this series (basically, how the eyes work, and how that affects what we see behind the gun), and it's kind of entertaining to get it as right as possible I think, at best, I'll just be able to give it a good layman's understanding type of treatment, but hopefully it'll help the things that follow it to make more sense.

Improper grip/stance can literally cause you to blink, too. There's a natural reaction of the body to blink the eyes when there's an impact at the base of the neck. If you have weak shoulders in your stance, the shoulders move rearward under recoil just enough to trigger that reflex. That isn't a flinch - it happens during recoil, not before. But I bet a lot of people mistake it for one.

[Sin-ster]

Hussel up with that next installment; I'm stoked to learn more about this topic!

Pllleeeeeaaaasssse.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Sin-ster

[G-ManBart]

There is a bit of evidence from the boxing world that was repeated with shooters. They found that when you get punched, or when the gun goes off, your brain essentially "blinks" for a fraction of a second.

Doesn't surprise me - do you have a reference (would like to read about it more, if so)?

The important thing to me is how all the biological stuff coalesces to affect our actual performance - I'm in the middle of my first draft of the next article in this series (basically, how the eyes work, and how that affects what we see behind the gun), and it's kind of entertaining to get it as right as possible I think, at best, I'll just be able to give it a good layman's understanding type of treatment, but hopefully it'll help the things that follow it to make more sense.

Improper grip/stance can literally cause you to blink, too. There's a natural reaction of the body to blink the eyes when there's an impact at the base of the neck. If you have weak shoulders in your stance, the shoulders move rearward under recoil just enough to trigger that reflex. That isn't a flinch - it happens during recoil, not before. But I bet a lot of people mistake it for one.

I'll try to find the reference...I think it was Mike from Schuemann that first pointed it out to me. I'll check with him if I can't find it.

Yep, the blink/shoulders/neck/ movement is something I've seen before, but maybe didn't think too much about it...good stuff. R,

[XRe]

Hussel up with that next installment; I'm stoked to learn more about this topic!

Ask and you shall receive

http://re-gun.com/2012/02/how-the-eyes-see/

[Mensch525]

So I guess the politically correct way to say "flat" is "He/she shoots very flat" rather than "that gun shoots flat;" right?

[XRe]

So I guess the politically correct way to say "flat" is "He/she shoots very flat" rather than "that gun shoots flat;" right?

God forbid anyone take this as me defining what terms can or should be used I'm just trying to educate folks on what "flat" really means in terms of what the gun is really doing vs. what we think it's doing when we see it move... When I get to the end of the series, I think it'll be clear - but I don't want to give away the "punchline" right away