Gun/Divisions Question re: Bianchi Cup, What to shoot.

[hartzpad]

I'm shooting Bianchi Cup with some friends (one shooting Production with XDM 5.25, other is shooting Metallic with a custom single stack Bianchi 1911).

I have 3 pistols to consider using:

CZ SP-01 Shadow (built by Angus)

M&P 9 Pro

STI Spartan 9mm single stack

I plan to take all 3 out to see which one I'm most accurate with. Questions about what can be done to the guns for between Production and Metallic:

M&P - I'm most comfortable shooting this gun, but I keep reading that M&P's aren't as accurate for the 25 and 50 yard shooting distances. I would have to shoot production, would this allow me to do an Apex Trigger? If I install an Apex Forward Set Trigger (1911 style), would this put me in Metallic class? If I switch sights to adjustables, would that put me in metallic?

CZ Shadow - In Production I have to start with hammer down using a DA first shot, correct? If I shoot it in Metallic, can I shoot cocked and locked? What if I converted it to a CZ SA trigger? Then I assume it is not production legal. If I switch the Shadow sights to an adjustable rear, would that change my class? Any advice? If I buy a CZ75SA Target, would that be legal in Production because it comes with a Single Action trigger?

STI - I've shot this one the least. Is this legal for production and metallic?

Help me out, both my friends shot Bianchi last year and even they don't have any clear answers for me. I'm not trying to win, but want to have fun and really improve my accuracy in preparing for this match.

[DWFAN]

I would shoot the M&P. You'll just have to test it for accuracy with different bullets, possibly add a KKM barrel. Mine was plenty accurate for the CUP and my skill level at 50yds. (using Montana 124gr bullets). As long as the Apex does not change anything externally, it will be production legal I assume. Again, you'll have to watch the trigger limit. I only added an APEX sear to mine, and passed the test.

Your CZ will probably not pass the trigger weight limit in Single Action. Mine won't. Convert to SA only = Metallic. I believe you can change sights to adjustable and still be legal, but someone else may have a better answer on that one. 75SA Target = Metallic.

Spartan is not legal for production since it is Single Action only.

[hartzpad]

I would shoot the M&P. You'll just have to test it for accuracy with different bullets, possibly add a KKM barrel. Mine was plenty accurate for the CUP and my skill level at 50yds. (using Montana 124gr bullets). As long as the Apex does not change anything externally, it will be production legal I assume. Again, you'll have to watch the trigger limit. I only added an APEX sear to mine, and passed the test.

Your CZ will probably not pass the trigger weight limit in Single Action. Mine won't. Convert to SA only = Metallic. I believe you can change sights to adjustable and still be legal, but someone else may have a better answer on that one. 75SA Target = Metallic.

Spartan is not legal for production since it is Single Action only.

Thank you for the help. So the apex sears would be legal but the Apex Forward Set Trigger replaces the actual trigger and likely would not be legal for production. Is there any need for an adjustable rear sight on the M&P for Bianchi? I guess I will soon find out as I shoot my (2) M&P 9 Pro's to see which one I will use. Probably bring one as a back up gun for the match.

[DWFAN]

I did not feel disadvantaged with fixed sights. Just learned what POA to use for each distance/event. (not much changed from 10-25 yards. 35 and 50 held a little higher.

[Action Pistolero]

I would suggest the Spartan and shoot Metallic. They pay to 50 places in Metallic and Production. There were 24 Metallic shooters and over 50 Production last year.

The 1911 trigger is much easier to shoot and you can add a prone pad. There are only 12 shots at 50 yards so if the gun will hold 4" at 50 I wouldn't worry about it. Main thing is to get used to the time limits and know where you have to aim at every distance. Practice the plates and especially the Barricade. The Barricade is not easy in Metallic or Production.

You can also use a race holster in Metallic making the draw easier.

[Spangler]

I think they pay 20 places in Metallic and 50 for production...

[Chuck Anderson]

Not meant to be a smart ass, but take a look at the rule book. If you can find it on the NRA website, particularly the 2012 revision, it has links to the Divisions. It will only take you a few minutes to read the Division requirements. But they are important. For one, no single action only guns in Production. Doesn't matter if it started as DA and you converted it or that you're shooting it SA only. No go.

The M&P seems to do fine for Enoch Smith who shot it extremely well, finishing second in 2010 and setting at least one record last year. Production, with the way the rules are now is a very Striker friendly division. You can also get an aftermarket barrel for the Smith that will clear up any existing accuracy questions.

I believe the all trigger pull requirement for Production is gone, so you can have a lighter than 3.5 pound pull for the SA on the CZ.

They still have the requirement listed in Production for A/M sights that they fit the factory dovetail and adj sights must be offered on the gun from the factory. Adj sights are offered on the Glocks, XDM's, XD's and CZ, but I don't believe so for the M&P.

I see you're in Utah. I'll be in St. George from April 24-28 for the Area 1 Championship. I'd be more than happy to sit down and go over your eqiupment, or help out however, if you can make it down.

[DWFAN]

I believe the all trigger pull requirement for Production is gone, so you can have a lighter than 3.5 pound pull for the SA on the CZ.

Not in the 2012 rule book. The puctuation may be confusing, but I do not read the below to allow less than 3.5lbs in SA mode auto. Maybe I'm wrong? (which would be fine, a CZ is the only Production gun I have right now.)

3.2.1

(g) Semi-Auto trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode, revolver trigger weight may not be

less than 3.5 lbs in double action mode.

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/Action/act-book.pdf

[Chuck Anderson]

I believe the all trigger pull requirement for Production is gone, so you can have a lighter than 3.5 pound pull for the SA on the CZ.

Not in the 2012 rule book. The puctuation may be confusing, but I do not read the below to allow less than 3.5lbs in SA mode auto. Maybe I'm wrong? (which would be fine, a CZ is the only Production gun I have right now.)

3.2.1

(g) Semi-Auto trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. In any mode, revolver trigger weight may not be

less than 3.5 lbs in double action mode.

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/Action/act-book.pdf

I think that might be the most poorly written rule I've ever read. I can't tell what the heck that means now. If they are requiring the SA pull on a DA/SA gun to be over 3.5 they might as well just change the name to Striker fired instead of Production.

[hartzpad]

Thanks for the help. I'm going to shoot the M&P and STI back to back this week to see which I feel I want to compete with. I'm tempted to use the STI so that I can use a prone magwell for the 25 and 50 yard lines, plus it has adjustable sights which I cannot use on the M&P. I've got a bunch of Bianchi targets and will see how I do.

I've shot the M&P for the past 3 years in every 3 gun and IDPA match and love it, but the 1911 might be the way to go to progress my accuracy, we'll see.

I think the CZ is out due to the DA first pull, that would really throw me off.

[DWFAN]

I think that might be the most poorly written rule I've ever read. I can't tell what the heck that means now. If they are requiring the SA pull on a DA/SA gun to be over 3.5 they might as well just change the name to Striker fired instead of Production.

I agree.

Edited January 24, 2012 by DWFAN

[Allgoodhits]

Thanks for the help. I'm going to shoot the M&P and STI back to back this week to see which I feel I want to compete with. I'm tempted to use the STI so that I can use a prone magwell for the 25 and 50 yard lines, plus it has adjustable sights which I cannot use on the M&P. I've got a bunch of Bianchi targets and will see how I do.

I've shot the M&P for the past 3 years in every 3 gun and IDPA match and love it, but the 1911 might be the way to go to progress my accuracy, we'll see.

I think the CZ is out due to the DA first pull, that would really throw me off.

If you like the M&P and you are very comfortable with it, shoot it. The Cup is not about the greater number of best shots, so much as it is the fewest number of worst shots or errors. You likely will make fewer errors with a platform that you like and are comfortable with. As Kevin said, there are only 24 shots required greater than 25 yds and the ten ring is 8" in diameter. Last, I am pretty sure that you may have adjustable sights on the M&P (production) provided the slide does not have to be modified to install them, i.e. must fit factory cut dovetail etc. Adjustable sights are no longer needed once they have been adjusted to your load and eyes! You may be able to get your "fixed" sights to shoot where you want them.

MJ

[NOSAJ19]

A drift adjustable sight (Glock 17/M&P) is still an adjustable sight. Given that it is only adjustable for windage, never- the-less, it's technically adjustable.

I have Dawson Precision adjustable rear sight on my M&PL. No slide modification is critical, to fitting replacement sights etc.

[hartzpad]

Took both guns out today and I shoot the STI better and more accurately, looks like I'm shooting Metallic. Ordered a Caspian Trik straight trigger. Now I need to decide if I want to try a prone magwell.

[gm iprod]

Chuck,

The problem is guns plike the CZ75, Sig P226, Beretta 92, H&K USP and a few others is that they can be fired (depending on exact model) either SA/DA or SA or DAO. Some have inbuilt hammer drop systems (decockers) that fully and or partially lower the hammer.

Production rules should read.

If you intend to shoot a firearm in Production Division that is both SA and DA then the first shot for each string of fire, must be fired DA. The trigger may not weigh less than 3.5lbs at it's lightest in any mode of fire. If the handgun is capable of firing in SA mode (whether the shooter intends to or actually does so) then the SA mode trigger pull must be no less than 3.5lbs. For striker fired handguns (Glock etc) if the trigger or striker are partially reset in normal operation of the firearm and remain partially set for the 2nd or subsequent shot (with the shooters finger off said trigger) then that mode of trigger operation should also not fire the firearm with less than a 3.5lb pull on the trigger from the reset or partially reset triggr / striker.

That way if a striker gun returns the trigger to fully forward should the shooter remove his or her finger from the trigger then the 3.5lb trigger pull would be affected across the entire stroke of the trigger.

Revolvers. If the hammer is capable of being fired single action then the 3.5lb trigger weight is applicable from the single action sear notch. If the firearm has had a trigger stop installed (internally) and or the single action sear removed from the hammer and or trigger then the 3.5lb will be applicable across the full length of the trigger stroke.

I believe we are not allowed to have external trigger stops on revolvers.

I also belive that if a revolver has an external safety device factory fitted this device should be used in such a way as to ensure the firearm complies with trigegr rule and that item should be used to form part of the trigger stop. Such a device could easily be modified after the firearm has been inspected and could easily be adjusted so as to comply with the trigger wieght rule at a moments notice.

We call that rule the Italian Rule for example.

Most referees do not have the firearms knowledge of every gun that would allow them to be 100% confident that someone was not tugging the chain. A list of suitable firearms should be drawn up to act as a guide for the referees, this list is not to be like teh IPSC list that just seems to be so complicated that sho really knows what the hell is going on. Some common sense woudl really be useful. But as many had said, common sense ain't all that common.

[Chuck Anderson]

Not sure if this is the right thread to hash out Production questions, but I don't agree with that description being "The Way" it should be.

If you specify a 3.5 pound trigger for every shot, then DA/SA guns are at a huge disadvantage. If the SA is 3.5, (really 4) then the DA is going to be 6-7 lbs. If you require the first shot to be fired DA, then you're hosing DA/SA guys.

If I have an option of firing a gun with a 4 pound trigger for 192 shots, or a gun with a 4 pound trigger for 152 shots and a 7 pound pull for 40 shots. I think I know which one has a dramatic advantage.

This is a fairly simple rule to write. "Production, first shot of each string must be fired D/A. D/A trigger pull must be at least 3.5 pounds." If the intent of the NRA is to require every shot to be 3.5 pounds this obviously wouldn't work, but I also don't know why they would do that. Most DA/SA guns don't have 3.5 pound pulls out of the box anyway in SA mode. Certainly not after a few thousand rounds.

[Griz]

gm iprod, I'm not sure if you're saying those are the ways the current rules read of if it's your version of how they should be. In any case, revolver triggers don't get weighed in SA any more... This is the way I wanted it to begin with, but it irks me because I already ground the SA sear notch off of my Production revolver. The NRA owes me a hammer.

Also, yes, SA/DA guns get the messy end of the stick, but remember, Production Division rules were written for the Glock 34... 3.5 lb trigger, 5.35" barrel, hmmm, coincidence? Shoot a Glock like our corporate sponsors intended, or deal with the disadvantages

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/Action/act-book.pdf

To the OP, shoot whatever gun you are best with, and don't worry about what class that puts you in. It is easier to place well in Metallic anyway just because it is less popular. The last time I went, I shot in Open and Metallic with Open as my primary gun... That was a mistake as I would have been in the money if Metallic was my primary gun, but didn't have a snowball's chance in hell in Open.

[gm iprod]

Chuck,

Well it's the way I think it should be, maybe, possibly. Just one solution to an ongoing problem.

I understand the ambiguity of the DA / SA trigger. That is why I don't like them.

With DA/SA you either have a legal (for NRA Prod) DA trigger that is nice and smooth, and with that you will have a SA trigger that will be too light to pass muster when the gun kicks into SA Mode. Or a nice crisp 3.5lb SA trigger and a DA trigger that you need two fingers for. The joy of shooting modern 9mm pistol.

So do we use a DOA semi auto, which will not have as good a trigger as a DA revolver that has a 3.5lb legal trigger. SO it becomes a revolver match and no one with an quto will bother to turn up with a Glock S&W etc etc as they will be creamed.

Hard call either way.

But whatever path they decide to follow with the rules, it must be spelled out so that there is no ambiguity, so no one turns up with a new toy and gets told, "Sorry pal, youre in Metallic. Do the best you can." When he has spent $2k getting there for Production.

[DWFAN]

Not sure if this is the right thread to hash out Production questions, but I don't agree with that description being "The Way" it should be.

If you specify a 3.5 pound trigger for every shot, then DA/SA guns are at a huge disadvantage. If the SA is 3.5, (really 4) then the DA is going to be 6-7 lbs. If you require the first shot to be fired DA, then you're hosing DA/SA guys.

If I have an option of firing a gun with a 4 pound trigger for 192 shots, or a gun with a 4 pound trigger for 152 shots and a 7 pound pull for 40 shots. I think I know which one has a dramatic advantage.

This is a fairly simple rule to write. "Production, first shot of each string must be fired D/A. D/A trigger pull must be at least 3.5 pounds." If the intent of the NRA is to require every shot to be 3.5 pounds this obviously wouldn't work, but I also don't know why they would do that. Most DA/SA guns don't have 3.5 pound pulls out of the box anyway in SA mode. Certainly not after a few thousand rounds.

I would agree with your written rule and assesment.

Who do/can we contact to ask for this consideration for next year? Is there a specific AP rules committee, or is it something else?

/my portion of thread drift