C Class times for Drills 1-14?

[leam]

Any comments on what times should be the target for a C class shooter in the basic Classifier skills in Steve's book #1? I'm trying to reevaluate and rebuild my foundation skills and want to set decent goals for where I am. Having some time guidelines would let me see which of the drills I need to focus on most.

Thanks!

Leam

[enutees]

If you don't get a response send me a PM and I can go look at my book and compare the dates when I was C class. Either way stick with the book and drills. It and Mike Seeklander's book I give credit for getting me to A from C in about 9 months. I'm trying to push my way to M now and finding myself going back to fundamentals from the drills. Trying to get my accuracy where it needs to be and not having much success lately.

[Steve Anderson]

I've struggled with answering this question because I don't want to give the wrong impression, or offend anyone.

Actually, I had another shooter ask me the same question in a class recently, and here's what I told him:

It never occurred to me that someone would not want to be a GM. That's just the honest truth.

Thinking about it, I suppose you could add about a second for each class you go down, although that's not really accurate.

There are several different kinds of C class shooters, and that confounds it even more.

What I really wanted to say was this: (and my sincere apologies to anyone who gets offended)

If you do these drills diligently and correctly, with the constant goal of improving, does it really matter what a C class time is?

You're not going to be there very long anyway...

And, if there C Class shooters doing these drills, feel free to post your times.

[Steve Anderson]

Enutees,

Your issue may be a mental one. There's not a lot of difference between A and M as far as the classifiers go.

I would set a dry fire schedule and stick to it, back that up with live fire 2x a week, focused on your weaknesses, and then most importantly:

At the match, dedicate your awareness to calling every shot. That is the key to unlocking your real speed. It also helps in removing judgement, which in turn removes emotion, which removes trying.

Hope that helps.

SA

[Heckler]

It also helps in removing judgement, which in turn removes emotion, which removes trying.

What exactly do you mean by "judgement"? Like if it is a memory stage, keeping yourself from thinking, "Oh man, I suck at memory stages" and just shooting it like any other stage?

[Steve Anderson]

Sure.

What I really meant was judging your shooting while you are shooting, but that's very similar.

How many times have you watched a shooter miss a steel target a few times and get visibly angry? That's judgment, emotion and trying.

Then they finally pause, aim the gun and the steel falls. That's calling the shot.

[leam]

I've struggled with answering this question because I don't want to give the wrong impression, or offend anyone.

No offense taken, honest! I am enjoying the book.

If you do these drills diligently and correctly, with the constant goal of improving, does it really matter what a C class time is?

Yup. I have a number of things in my life to take care of and shooting is just a hobby. It is not in my current plan to make GM but to progress to C class this year. That should take what shooting, dry-fire, and reloading time I have. Once I make C I can then evaluate what my next step will be; progress on to B, move to some other sport, or whatever. For others it provides incremental goals that they can use to reinforce success. Baby steps.

By knowing about how much time I'm off on a skill tells me which ones are my weakest areas and need more work. For example, on drill #1 you shoot for .5 or .6, I'm at 1.70 par time. If mine average three times yours is that a reasonable start?

Thanks!

Leam

[Chris Keen]

By knowing about how much time I'm off on a skill tells me which ones are my weakest areas and need more work. For example, on drill #1 you shoot for .5 or .6, I'm at 1.70 par time. If mine average three times yours is that a reasonable start?

The answer to that will be different for everyone. We all progress at different rates. That's what makes this game so challenging .... no two shooters are exactly the same. We should all strive to compete against ourselves, not each other.

To know the answer to your dilemma is to know yourself.

Start with a par-time you can comfortably achieve 5 times in a row, then lower your par-time by .1 each time you reach your goal. You will soon find out what skills you lack, and which skills you excel at. Then practice the skills you lack more often than not. (eg. Weak-hand only, Stong-hand only, reloads, etc.)

[Steve Anderson]

Well, we all start where we all start, so whether it's reasonable or not it's what we have to work with.

If you're at 1.70, here are a few things to look at:

1. There is a full second of wasted time here, so take a hard look at in slow motion and look for inefficient or extra movement.

2. It helps some people to pull their arms up a little for the start position. You preload the muscles and get the hands a little closer to the gun.

3. Another trick I use is to put people right up on the target and have them literally throw the gun at the target out of the holster, obviously without letting go of it. This teaches us how to draw aggressively!

4. Reaction time may be an issue here, as well. Focus on starting the draw at the B of beep. If you send or post a vid, that'll help a bunch.

Hope that helps.

[lumpygravy]

Sure.

What I really meant was judging your shooting while you are shooting, but that's very similar.

How many times have you watched a shooter miss a steel target a few times and get visibly angry? That's judgment, emotion and trying.

Then they finally pause, aim the gun and the steel falls. That's calling the shot.

This has happened to me many times.

bang (miss) &%@#%&*

bang (miss) !%@(?<

bang (miss) )$*^%}

aim - focus - breathe - break shot

DING!

I've noticed when I shoot limited (with plenty of mag capacity) I would occassionaly start slinging shots. Shooting single stack has really reinforced the discipline and practice and importance and efficiency of calling shots.

[Alan Adamson]

Sure.

What I really meant was judging your shooting while you are shooting, but that's very similar.

How many times have you watched a shooter miss a steel target a few times and get visibly angry? That's judgment, emotion and trying.

Then they finally pause, aim the gun and the steel falls. That's calling the shot.

This has happened to me many times.

bang (miss) &%@#%&*

bang (miss) !%@(?<

bang (miss) )$*^%}

aim - focus - breathe - break shot

DING!

I've noticed when I shoot limited (with plenty of mag capacity) I would occassionaly start slinging shots. Shooting single stack has really reinforced the discipline and practice and importance and efficiency of calling shots.

But wait, there is a gross difference between

- Aim, see sights, breathe, break shot, hear ding

*AND*

- Aim, see sights, breathe, break shot, *recognize where your sights WERE WHEN YOU BROKE THE SHOT*, hear ding - in fact, if you do this correctly, you *SHOULD* never *wait* for the "hear ding" part, you should know that your sights were where they should have been when you broke the shot and the ding could be silent for all you care...

The former is *NOT* calling your shots, the later *IS*

I'd just hate for people to think that its as easy as the former, it's very much an acquired SKILL

[enutees]

Enutees,

Your issue may be a mental one. There's not a lot of difference between A and M as far as the classifiers go.

I would set a dry fire schedule and stick to it, back that up with live fire 2x a week, focused on your weaknesses, and then most importantly:

At the match, dedicate your awareness to calling every shot. That is the key to unlocking your real speed. It also helps in removing judgement, which in turn removes emotion, which removes trying.

Hope that helps.

SA

Thanks for the response on my issue as well. Not to drift the thread but I do dry fire 5x a week and live fire once per week. I wish I could do more live fire but it is not in the cards right now. I have become better at shot calling and rarely have misses at matches but shoot too many D's and C's. I shoot production so I have realized points win matches. The last major match I shot against a GM (Matt Mink) he shot 97% of the points available and I shot 87%. While I had a great match and won A class and beat a GM and several M's I do see where the gap is. My times were not far off but the points just weren't there. I've just found when I try to slow down to get points I shoot just as sloppy but think too much and have other screw ups. I have a class with Ben Stoeger in April maybe he can help me understand where my disconnect is.

[Chris Keen]

The best thing you can do to learn what works for you, is to keep notes of your own personal par times in dry-fire, and drills you do at the range. Start a notebook strictly for keeping track of your progression, or just use the charts in Steve's book. It really teaches you what you can, and cannot do. Then you can build from there.

[Steve Anderson]

"I've just found when I try to slow down to get points I shoot just as sloppy but think too much and have other screw ups."

That's because you TRIED to SLOW DOWN.

Conscious control of speed in never a good idea, and slowing down for the sake of slowing down is just as bad as speeding up.

Telling yourself to slow down gets you exactly what you ask for, and the original problem is not solved.

What if you told yourself to call every shot?

[leam]

Well, we all start where we all start, so whether it's reasonable or not it's what we have to work with.

If you're at 1.70, here are a few things to look at:

1. There is a full second of wasted time here, so take a hard look at in slow motion and look for inefficient or extra movement.

2. It helps some people to pull their arms up a little for the start position. You preload the muscles and get the hands a little closer to the gun.

3. Another trick I use is to put people right up on the target and have them literally throw the gun at the target out of the holster, obviously without letting go of it. This teaches us how to draw aggressively!

4. Reaction time may be an issue here, as well. Focus on starting the draw at the B of beep. If you send or post a vid, that'll help a bunch.

Hope that helps.

Steve,

I've begun casting about for a video camera so I can upload a video. Thinking on #3, I started just doing beep drills at point blank, with no gun. I can "draw" faster than the timer can make two separate beeps. Taking a step or two back and holstering up, I went aggressive on the draw and can make 0.80 most of the time. That is, I think I am drawn though still not good sight picture, and I think I'm there before the second beep. Don't have anyone at the house right now to tell me.

There's a match 15 Jan 12 semi-locally. I'm going to ramp up on drills 1-14 and see how I do. I appreciate the work you put into the book and I know that if I apply it I'll do better.

Leam

[dsb45acp]

Leam,

These are my current times. Limited = "B", L-10 = "C" & Single Stack = "C". I do my drills indoors on 1/3 size metric targets & poppers set at approx 12 ft. I use business cards to shrink the lower "A" zone. My goal is to move up to "A" class single stack this year. Maybe Steve will come by and give us some input.

Drill 1 = 0.8

2 = 0.8

3 = 0.9

4 = 1.0

5 = 0.9

6 = 1.1

7 = 0.9 (Just today I set a personal best. 25 reloads in a row without a miss or bobble! 5 from each pouch.)

8 = 4.5

9 = 4.5

10 = 4.7

11 = 4.9

12 = 5.1

13 = 2.0

14 = 2.1

Hope this helps you out. Good luck & Happy New Year!

[leam]

dsb45acp, thanks!

Leam

[enutees]

"I've just found when I try to slow down to get points I shoot just as sloppy but think too much and have other screw ups."

That's because you TRIED to SLOW DOWN.

Conscious control of speed in never a good idea, and slowing down for the sake of slowing down is just as bad as speeding up.

Telling yourself to slow down gets you exactly what you ask for, and the original problem is not solved.

What if you told yourself to call every shot?

Thanks again Steve for this advice Steve. Followed it on most of my stages yesterday and shot my first 100% classifier. Lost focus on one stage and blew the match but good other than that.

[George Post]

Leam,

Try this, on drill #1 and 2, pay attention to the first beep, where is your strong hand when the beep ends? No need to be exact is it going for the gun, gripping the gun, moving the gun?

For me the Gun is breaking out of the holster at the end of the beep.

Also this drill is not over until you can see the sights imposed over the A zone, try this put the target in the light and stand in dim or low light area. I can really see the sights better like this, and I know if they are lined up or not before the second beep.

Also sometimes when you are seeing the sights real well you should pull the trigger during the second beep and really look at them to see how much they move.

Good luck

George