FTDR: can it be issued for ignoring cover?

[Cy Soto]

Can anyone point me to how outlaw rules work?

It's simple... Bring any gun you have, have a safe attitude about shooting and come have some fun.

Shooters can use any type of sighting system, they can load their magazines to capacity and they can use "competition-only" gear. A USPSA Limited shooter can show up with his/her pimped out STI, 140mm 21-round mags, CR Speed holster and mags, cleats and so on. They will still be required to use cover and given procedural penalties if they don't; they will still be required to shoot on the move when the COF dictates so; and, above everything else, they will be required to follow all the safety rules.

In exchange, they will be hit with a million procedural penalties ('cause they wil forget to use cover) and they will not be eligible for any match prizes. Everybody gets to shoot and the IDPA & USPSA community gets to hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Or we can continue to arbitrarily DQ one another just to prove that "my sport is better than your sport" and continue to grow the gap between these two shooting disciplines.

Listen, I shoot both sports and I follow the rules of both of them as much as I can remember but I don't make a big stink when an SO gives me a procedural penalty for dropping a partially loaded magazine. I showed up at my most recent IDPA match with an Uncle Mikes holster because I wanted to shoot a gun that had been sitting in the safe for two years and that was the only holster I could find for it. I asked the MD if I would be allowed to use it and he said "yes, you just have to shoot in Outlaw". No big deal... I still got to shoot! He could have very well told me "no, that is not IDPA legal" but he didn't.

[Cy Soto]

Cy,

"Half" IDPA matches degrade the sport considerably.

I respectfully disagree.

I am not saying that these competitors should not be given procedural penalties every time they deserve one. What I am saying is that arbitrarily DQ'ing them to prove a point is Unsportsmanlike Conduct at its finest.

Let's ignore for a moment that these folks are USPSA shooters. Let's just say that they practice a non-IDPA pistol-style competition. For example, I have shot with a Law Enforcement Officer who insists on giving verbal commands to the targets as he is engaging them ("stop", "drop your weapon", etc). One can present the argument that this sort of actions are distracting to other competitors but this is how he trains and no one objects to it. He also competes with fully loaded magazines because, again, this is how he trains.

You see, the point is that, many of these competitors are attending these matches not because they "need" to win. They are doing it because they want to shoot.

[Strick]

Can anyone point me to how outlaw rules work?

Or we can continue to arbitrarily DQ one another just to prove that "my sport is better than your sport" and continue to grow the gap between these two shooting disciplines.

The gap gets widened by people showing up to a particular match and not wanting to actually shoot that match. If you want to shoot IDPA , go to an IDPA match, if you want to shoot USPSA go to a USPSA match. Snubbing your nose at either one and using the excuse "just give me the procedural" makes a mockery of them both.

[Chills1994]

If it is an uncle mike's belt loop holster with the evil dreaded light tunnel, I think you can get by undoing the two bottom belt loop thingey screws and VOILA! Instant paddle holster!

As far as outlaw matches working?

Heck yeah! They work!

I'm digging time plus scoring... Put two shots anywhere on the brown paper to be considered neutralized....or just one hit in the chest box or head box. Scoring is a snap! Not neutralized adds 5 seconds to your score. Not engaging a target gets you another 10 seconds. Hit on a no shoot = 10 seconds.

The added bonus for me is I only need one scoresheet for up to six stages, for each shooter. Instead of say 7 sheets for just one shooter at one of my USPSA matches.

Run whatchya brung! No divisions! No classifications! Fastest to slowest!

Cover and any other subjective calls....pffffttttt!!! Forget that.

Welcome to the broad shoulders and thick skin Shooter's league.

[Strick]

There is a difference between an "outlaw match" and an IDPA match that has a division for people that don't really want to shoot IDPA.

Outlaw or Hybrid matches are the best of both worlds. IMO

[Steve Koski]

Cy,

It might work from the perspective of someone who doesn't want IDPA rules enforced, but your "half" IDPA match doesn't work well for those that want IDPA rules enforced.

The SO's don't ding PE after PE after PE after PE after PE after FTDR after FTDR after FTDR for the shooters who don't give a damn about IDPA rules. They back off. The consequence is that they back off of everyone, even IDPA members.

Really.

Koski

[Cy Soto]

The SO's don't ding PE after PE after PE after PE after PE after FTDR after FTDR after FTDR for the shooters who don't give a damn about IDPA rules. They back off. The consequence is that they back off of everyone, even IDPA members.

In that case, then I must say that they are not doing their job. But the same can be said of the SO's who hand out arbitrary PE's to others but not to their buddies (and we all know this happens more often than we care to discuss).

[Cy Soto]

If it is an uncle mike's belt loop holster with the evil dreaded light tunnel, I think you can get by undoing the two bottom belt loop thingey screws and VOILA! Instant paddle holster!

Yeap, I thought about that but this is not a firearm that I shoot often.

[John Z Sr]

And this, boys and girls, is exactly why we started ZSA !!! Be SAFE, have FUN and get introduced to competitive shooting, then we bring you to a USPSA match and an IDPA match (which we shoot and officiate regularly)and let you the shooter decide. Play by the rules of the game you are playing, or don't play, very simple.

[Rustyzx9]

I'm a USPSA , 3 gun shooter and have never shot IDPA. I have to wonder why would any shooter would go out of thier way to not follow the rulles of any match they show up to shoot? I kinda feel like it's a simple matter of respect for the people who put any given match. We are REALLY fortunate here in Oklahoma. We have so many matches within driving distance here that I get to shoot at least two matches every weekend and get to pick and choose which ones those will be, so maybe my opinion on this is invalid. When you're in someone elses house you follow thier rules right?

[Chills1994]

or just be man enough to take the penalties (not whine about them) when you violate the rules.

[Cy Soto]

or just be man enough to take the penalties (not whine about them) when you violate the rules.

Would you say that these penalties should include being DQ'd for ignoring the use of cover?

[freeidaho]

A cover penalty is for someone trying to use cover, but didn't quite make it. It is usually a matter of inches. Someone that demonstrates that they are not going to try at all is showing disrespect to the sport, the MD, the SOs and the other shooters. Clearly unsportsmanlike conduct. A DQable offense. It seems to me that the correct thing happened.

kr

Edited November 29, 2011 by freeidaho

[Chills1994]

my assistant match director has a line he speaks when some shooters get upset about the scores or whatever else..."You'd think there was a brand new Chevy pick up truck on the line at each local match."

I always chuckle when I hear him say that.

Me? Personally? No, I wouldn't DQ some USPSA gamer from an IDPA match for not using cover repeatedly. Just keep issuing 3 second procedurals for each time they didn't use cover.

Annotate on their scoresheets what the PE's were for, point it out to the MD when you turn in the scoresheets and let him decide if all those "Ip-sick" guys need to have a 20 second FTDR tacked on, after the fact.

also, leave it up to the MD to issue out an email warning to everyone even the IPSC gamers for the next match that repeatedly not using cover equals an automatic FTDR...per each occurence???

if the regular die hard IDPA'ers are still getting their butts handed to him by those dang gamers after the 20 second penalty gets tacked, then...well...maybe some of your IDPA'ers need to start shooting USPSA.

[Cy Soto]

Clearly unsportsmanlike conduct. A DQable offense. It seems to me that the correct thing happened.

I don't believe the shooters on the OP got DQ'd. The poster was asking if they could have been given an FTDR. The question of DQ'ing the offending party was brought up later on this thread.

[Chills1994]

just an observation about human nature and this us vs. them mentality, maybe the IPSC guys just want to see you get all upset about it.

[Cy Soto]

Me? Personally? No, I wouldn't DQ some USPSA gamer from an IDPA match for not using cover repeatedly. Just keep issuing 3 second procedurals for each time they didn't use cover.

I too believe that this is a fair call.

[Steve Koski]

The SO's don't ding PE after PE after PE after PE after PE after FTDR after FTDR after FTDR for the shooters who don't give a damn about IDPA rules. They back off. The consequence is that they back off of everyone, even IDPA members.

In that case, then I must say that they are not doing their job.

Exactly, their job has become extremely difficult and they stop doing it well. It is human nature. That is why "half" IDPA matches stink.

Also, non-IPDA members will fill in and run the timer or the clipboard while the regular SO takes a leak, loads his mags, etc. Are they going to call penalties on IDPA members? Of course not.

[Steve Koski]

Cy,

Are you a current IDPA member?

Koski

Edited November 29, 2011 by Steve Koski

[Cy Soto]

Cy,

Are you a current IDPA member?

Koski

Nope, I let my IDPA membership expire several years ago. Why do you ask?

[The_Vigilante]

I'll guarantee you one thing: if I go to a USPSA match and continually disregard the fault lines and other rules and laugh about it I am going to be asked to go to DQ and not come back for the forseeable future!

Edited November 29, 2011 by The_Vigilante

[Steve Koski]

Cy,

Are you a current IDPA member?

Koski

Nope, I let my IDPA membership expire several years ago. Why do you ask?

Just wondering where you were coming from. You don't sound like an IDPA member.

[Cy Soto]

I'll guarantee you one thing: if I go to a USPSA match and continually disregard the fault lines and laugh about it I am going to be asked to go to DQ and not come back for the forseeable future!

I doubt it. As long as you are not putting yourself and/or others in any sort of danger, the worst that can happen is that you will be given a procedural for each shot fired.

[Chills1994]

I'll guarantee you one thing: if I go to a USPSA match and continually disregard the fault lines and other rules and laugh about it I am going to be asked to go to DQ and not come back for the forseeable future!

depends on the match, and the MD.

IIRC, it is one procedural for each shot fired while a foot is outside of the foot fault lines. and again, IIRC, points-wise, it is akin to taking away two A zone hits.

as your hit factor rapidly approaches zero for each shot fired outside of the fault lines...well, when the scores get published, I think you'll find your name closer to the bottom of the combined UNofficial results. if you want to see your name higher up on the list, it'll be a self-correcting problem.

[Cy Soto]

Just wondering where you were coming from. You don't sound like an IDPA member.

I shot IDPA exclusively for several years. I still enjoy the sport and participate in a few matches every year but I cannot in good conscious partake of the "us v. them" mentality which, sadly, is more prevalently observed in the IDPA discipline. Still, I honestly believe that it is a wonderful game and anytime a new shooter asks me to get him/her initiated in the shooting sports, I always choose to baptize them in the IDPA waters simply because it is more "new-shooter-friendly". Eventually, they all end up in the dark side...