Single stack question...

[Strick]

The difficulty is in getting people on each side to realize there rules don't spell out one way or the other. Oh, and just for the record it was not me. I can count to 10 and load my mags to that all the time.

The rules are quite clear, you are just not listening to my position. The only way to move from major to minor is by chronograph, not by equipment choice. That's in the rules, and I quoted it. You sign up to be scored either way, and it's not retroactive. Show me where your equipment choice can determine your scoring category and change it in the match rules and I'll reconsider you're argument. Hint, it's not in d5. You need to find where it allows a change to the declared power factor. Like c2.38 or 6.2.5.1 good luck.

You are treating major and minor as divisions like the difference between Prod and Limited. They are not divisions so it is not as clear as you make it seem. Just like there is no Limited Minor and Limited Major champ at a match because they are all the same divisions.

[DWFAN]

The difficulty is in getting people on each side to realize there rules don't spell out one way or the other. Oh, and just for the record it was not me. I can count to 10 and load my mags to that all the time.

Fill us in on the rest of the story.. Dont really care who did it, but what was the outcome, what was the ruling, and by whom ?

[Skydiver]

But with 9 rounds I am still meeting the requirements of the division, correct? My penalty is to be scored minor now. No equipment violation has occured, I have not loaded 11 rounds in a mag, all my mags are in the same place, so explain to me how that is different than the shooter that goes minor shooting L-10 an gets scored minor? They declared major, but opps didn't make it. Same thing, but no bump to open. I don't see how the rule book warrants a bump to open in this case. We are all just used to the automatic bump for a screw up, but not here. Oh yeah, it is not the same as the Revo in production since the rules spell out what is allowed for a revo in production. I am talking about division legal equipment here.

Roger,

It seems pretty simple to me: When the shooter signed up as SS, Major -- his capacity limit was set at 8 rounds per mag after the buzzer. Once he busts that capacity limit, welcome to open.....

To do anything else, is to have two differing standards for Single Stack competitors, based upon what power factor they declare.....

The guy declaring SS Minor, doesn't get a pass for a mag loaded with 11.....

(And, for the record -- I've been trying to wrap my head around your argument for most of the day....)

I completely agree with Nik's assessment here. The declaration of the division and the power factor establishes the magazine capacity limits.

Playing a little bit of devil's advocate here, though: What rule says that a shooter must declare his power factor at the beginning of the match? Yes, the typical registration form/process will ask for the power factor when the shooter registers at the beginning of the match, but the point when the power factor becomes critical is when the results are being computed to bring up the provisional match results (9.8.2). Other than that, as I read 5.6.1, the chrono station is supposed to aid in determining the power factor of the shooter's ammo. If there is no chrono station to determine the power factor, it's up to the shooter to declare one. It seems legal for a shooter to delay declaring a power factor until right before the provisional results. Does rule 6.2.3 which requires declaring Division also implicitly require declaring a power factor?

Sky,

no, power factor must be declared at registration -- especially in SS, where it affects how high the ROs count on every stage....

I've never been to a major match where that wasn't checked/confirmed at registration....

I agree. It seems to be built into the "traditional" way a match has always been done, but no specific rule to requires it at registration time.

As an aside, I just noticed that registration doesn't seem to ask if the competitor is shooting Production with a semi-automatic vs. Production with a revolver, nor do they ask if they are shooting Limited/Limited 10 with a double stack or single stack gun.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Skydiver

[steel1212]

Its pretty simple to me but I'm one of the few people in this thread that shoots a lot of SS. SS is the only division that declaring major or minor limits your capacity. Every other division, that allows major or minor still has the same capacity limitations (Limited 10 is still 10, Limited is still 140mm, Open is still 170mm, revo is still 6, Production is all score minor anyway). So when you declare major and shoot 10 rounds because you had 9 rounds in your .40 magazine and still barnied up welcome to Open, not welcome to minor. The catch here, like I said earlier, is no other division has capacity limitations if you declare major or minor, just SS.

The excuse that a lot of people don't shoot SS and don't know the rules that well isn't a excuse, its trying to get a way out. The rule book is there, read it. You don't have to like it you just have to play by it.

Actually, Limited (and Limited 10) can go up to 141.25mm for double stack guns, and 171.25mm for single stack guns.

And its still 10 rounds regardless.

[Fireant]

The difficulty is in getting people on each side to realize there rules don't spell out one way or the other. Oh, and just for the record it was not me. I can count to 10 and load my mags to that all the time.

The rules are quite clear, you are just not listening to my position. The only way to move from major to minor is by chronograph, not by equipment choice. That's in the rules, and I quoted it. You sign up to be scored either way, and it's not retroactive. Show me where your equipment choice can determine your scoring category and change it in the match rules and I'll reconsider you're argument. Hint, it's not in d5. You need to find where it allows a change to the declared power factor. Like c2.38 or 6.2.5.1 good luck.

Nope, I don't think those fit. Lets look at them. 6.2.5.1 says However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other

requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise

the competitor will shoot the match for no score. (I added the bold, we declare divisions, we pray for power factor )

It says DIVISION requirements' so lets look at the division requirements:

Minimum cal .355 and min. for maj is .400 OK

PF 125 for minor and 165 for major OK

Fits box OK

Mag capacity 8 major 10 minor OK ***this is the key part,by this rule if I load 8 I can be scored major if I meet the PF at chrono or I can load more than 8 and be scored minor for the match as long as I am at 125 or more at the chrono****

all other equipment is OK.

Lets look at C2.38:

38. If the resultant power factor fails to meet the Major power factor floor of the

relevant Division, the competitors entire match scores will be recalculated

as Minor, if achieved.

I don't know about you, but I don't read in there anywhere that it says this is the only way a PF can be changed during a match? Did I miss it somewhere?

Lets look at what we have:

Legal gun, mags, ammo is over 125 PF, mags and holster are in the correct place on the belt and the magazines do not have more than 10 rounds in them. What DIVISION requirements are being broken to warrant a bump to open? Just because we are used to the automatic bump for the 11 rounds in production and L-10 that bump is not warranted by the rules in SS.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Fireant

[Skydiver]

Its pretty simple to me but I'm one of the few people in this thread that shoots a lot of SS. SS is the only division that declaring major or minor limits your capacity. Every other division, that allows major or minor still has the same capacity limitations (Limited 10 is still 10, Limited is still 140mm, Open is still 170mm, revo is still 6, Production is all score minor anyway). So when you declare major and shoot 10 rounds because you had 9 rounds in your .40 magazine and still barnied up welcome to Open, not welcome to minor. The catch here, like I said earlier, is no other division has capacity limitations if you declare major or minor, just SS.

The excuse that a lot of people don't shoot SS and don't know the rules that well isn't a excuse, its trying to get a way out. The rule book is there, read it. You don't have to like it you just have to play by it.

Actually, Limited (and Limited 10) can go up to 141.25mm for double stack guns, and 171.25mm for single stack guns.

And its still 10 rounds regardless.

Presumably you meant still 10 round limit just for the Limited 10 shooters. I've seen Limited shooters shooting up to around 21-22 rounds without reloads, should they have been bumped to Open even if their mags fit in the 141.25mm (doublestack Limited)/171.25mm (single stack Limited) are required by the Limited division?

Edited November 9, 2011 by Skydiver

[steel1212]

The difficulty is in getting people on each side to realize there rules don't spell out one way or the other. Oh, and just for the record it was not me. I can count to 10 and load my mags to that all the time.

The rules are quite clear, you are just not listening to my position. The only way to move from major to minor is by chronograph, not by equipment choice. That's in the rules, and I quoted it. You sign up to be scored either way, and it's not retroactive. Show me where your equipment choice can determine your scoring category and change it in the match rules and I'll reconsider you're argument. Hint, it's not in d5. You need to find where it allows a change to the declared power factor. Like c2.38 or 6.2.5.1 good luck.

You are treating major and minor as divisions like the difference between Prod and Limited. They are not divisions so it is not as clear as you make it seem. Just like there is no Limited Minor and Limited Major champ at a match because they are all the same divisions.

What I want to know is how many people that are arguing against getting bumped to open have actually been bumped to open while shooting their .40 SS? What I'm seeing is a lot of shooters that don't shoot SS much arguing for a rule to be change that doesn't even affect them. It would be like me arguing to have the IPSC production rules instated into production so that I can load the mags all the way up on the CZ that I shoot occasionally.

[aztecdriver]

You are treating major and minor as divisions like the difference between Prod and Limited. They are not divisions so it is not as clear as you make it seem. Just like there is no Limited Minor and Limited Major champ at a match because they are all the same divisions.

In as far as match management and equipment rules are, you are right, I am treating them as such as division equipment rules dictate I do so.

Look at it this way, ur at a stage and I look at your score sheet it says single stack major. I know now to count shots because you can only have 8 rounds. During the cof I count 9 rounds before a reload and no slide lock. What do I do? Call the rm over and tell him he Had 9 rounds from one magazine he's now shooting minor.? By what rule do make that change? It's not d5. Again, where does it state I can change someone's declares power factor based on the equipment.

[Fireant]

Corey you have a point there, but in a major match you are more than likely being RO'd by a non SS shooter and if you Arb a decision the shooters making the decision are more than likely non SS shooters. I hope that remark is not at me, since I have spent the entire year shooting SS. Not a long time, but more than most.

[Fireant]

You are treating major and minor as divisions like the difference between Prod and Limited. They are not divisions so it is not as clear as you make it seem. Just like there is no Limited Minor and Limited Major champ at a match because they are all the same divisions.

In as far as match management and equipment rules are, you are right, I am treating them as such as division equipment rules dictate I do so.

Look at it this way, ur at a stage and I look at your score sheet it says single stack major. I know now to count shots because you can only have 8 rounds. During the cof I count 9 rounds before a reload and no slide lock. What do I do? Call the rm over and tell him he Had 9 rounds from one magazine he's now shooting minor.? By what rule do make that change? It's not d5. Again, where does it state I can change someone's declares power factor based on the equipment.

Where does it say you can't. Don't we go by the quote that if the rule book doesn't say you can't do it then it is OK.

[aztecdriver]

Where does it say you can't. Don't we go by the quote that if the rule book doesn't say you can't do it then it is OK.

5.6.1.

[aztecdriver]

Let me through on more out there. Limited shooter declares major at a major match shows up at chrono shooting 172pf with .357 sig. What's the call?

[Skydiver]

You are treating major and minor as divisions like the difference between Prod and Limited. They are not divisions so it is not as clear as you make it seem. Just like there is no Limited Minor and Limited Major champ at a match because they are all the same divisions.

In as far as match management and equipment rules are, you are right, I am treating them as such as division equipment rules dictate I do so.

Look at it this way, ur at a stage and I look at your score sheet it says single stack major. I know now to count shots because you can only have 8 rounds. During the cof I count 9 rounds before a reload and no slide lock. What do I do? Call the rm over and tell him he Had 9 rounds from one magazine he's now shooting minor.? By what rule do make that change? It's not d5. Again, where does it state I can change someone's declares power factor based on the equipment.

Sorry to muddy the waters, but phrasing the question that way brings up this point:

If a shooter claims to be shooting Single Stack/Limited/Limited 10 Major, but later a match official notices that they are shooting with a bullet less than .40 caliber. My understanding from my RO class long ago was that the shooter just got scored as minor (, but there were also some considerations for unsafe ammunition to look at). Anyway, the point is that they do not get bumped to Open, but their declared power factor is changed for them by their equipment choice.

If the "declared Division" includes the power factor, then by the strict reading of 6.2.5.1, the shooter failed to meet the division requirements, so they get bumped to open, not get scored as minor. (Which makes for something interesting because in Open, the minimum caliber for Major is .38. So without a chrono station, the original declared power factor of "major" will stick.)

ETA:

Just to make things clear, I still think that at a competitor has to declare division and power factor at the beginning of the match, and abide by the restrictions set by those declarations. As I prefaced above though, this does muddy the waters a bit, based on what I've been taught/told in the case of incorrect caliber.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Skydiver

[Strick]

What I want to know is how many people that are arguing against getting bumped to open have actually been bumped to open while shooting their .40 SS? What I'm seeing is a lot of shooters that don't shoot SS much arguing for a rule to be change that doesn't even affect them. It would be like me arguing to have the IPSC production rules instated into production so that I can load the mags all the way up on the CZ that I shoot occasionally.

I am curious what is the required number of matches shot in a particular division before someone can discuss these things?

[steel1212]

Corey you have a point there, but in a major match you are more than likely being RO'd by a non SS shooter and if you Arb a decision the shooters making the decision are more than likely non SS shooters. I hope that remark is not at me, since I have spent the entire year shooting SS. Not a long time, but more than most.

Its directed at those that it concerns, the ones that don't shoot SS much or don't even shoot a .40 which is the only caliber it affects. What would you be arbitrating? That you should be bumped to minor which you know its not going to happen? Its a black and white rule, its simple it doesn't need to be changed it works.

[steel1212]

What I want to know is how many people that are arguing against getting bumped to open have actually been bumped to open while shooting their .40 SS? What I'm seeing is a lot of shooters that don't shoot SS much arguing for a rule to be change that doesn't even affect them. It would be like me arguing to have the IPSC production rules instated into production so that I can load the mags all the way up on the CZ that I shoot occasionally.

I am curious what is the required number of matches shot in a particular division before someone can discuss these things?

Really you took that personal? The reference I was making is that why are people, that don't shoot the division, worried about a rule that, those of that shoot the division, don't even worry about?

[Singlestack]

It's a good thing to know/understand all of the rules.

[Strick]

What I want to know is how many people that are arguing against getting bumped to open have actually been bumped to open while shooting their .40 SS? What I'm seeing is a lot of shooters that don't shoot SS much arguing for a rule to be change that doesn't even affect them. It would be like me arguing to have the IPSC production rules instated into production so that I can load the mags all the way up on the CZ that I shoot occasionally.

I am curious what is the required number of matches shot in a particular division before someone can discuss these things?

Really you took that personal? The reference I was making is that why are people, that don't shoot the division, worried about a rule that, those of that shoot the division, don't even worry about?

Some may be thinking about shooting the division, some may be interested in how they should make a ruling at a match, some might just be curious as to how the rulebook is interpreted.

[Nik Habicht]

The minor shooter gets to keep going too -- just not for score.....

Power Factor is different than complying with divisional requirements, otherwise anyone busting declared power factor would be moved to open.....

Your chance to win is done......

According to the posts in this thread, PF is a huge part of divisional compliance when shooting SSTK major.

Actually not really. The number of rounds one is allowed in a magazine are the huge part of divisional compliance......

The division requirements are:

Declare major -- you get to load 8 rounds in each magazine. Load more, welcome to open.....

Declare minor -- you get to load 10 rounds in each magazine. Load more, welcome to open.....

If you declare major, and subsequently bust chrono -- you're now minor and may load 10 rounds in each magazine.....

Seems simple to me.....

[Nik Habicht]

No, I still don't think the rules support that. Let's say I am shooting production and add grip tape to the slide, I have now violated the equipment/requirements of the division and I'm shooting open. Let's say I load 11 rounds in a mag by mistake and get caught, I'm shooting open. In both of those situations the division requirements were violated. Now back to the 9 round major shooter, they have not violated a division requirement, they have violated a powerfactor/scoring issue. The shooter is still legal for the division in everything they have done correct? People are trying to make major a requirement for the division when it is not. If I follow the same logic used to bump them to open, then if a shooter delcares major in SS and chronos at 164.9 then they are bumped to open for not making major since they declared it?

Not quite.

Once the shooter declares Major -- the divisional compliance requirements for him limit him to 8 rounds in a magazine. There is no 9 or 10 round option for him, unless he subsequently busts chrono.....

[Nik Habicht]

And if a person is declaring major and shoots minor than he should be scored as minor for the entire match.

And that's what happens now. Shooters are scored as either major or minor -- so the chrono stage results potentially affect every paper target they shoot in the match.

As far as production, I don't feel a person who goes sub minor should be disqualified, just bumped to open division or shoot for no score.

Folks who sub-minor aren't disqualified. They're simply shooting for no score.....

[Nik Habicht]

sub minor in production is a disqualification. which is too harsh a punishment for the action

No, respectfully it isn't. When you're disqualified, you no longer get to fire a round in the match.

When you sub-minor, you get to finish shooting the match -- for fun. Really good match statisticians, will run a set of unofficial results for you, so you can at least where you would have place had your ammo made minor.....

If we didn't have a power factor floor, you could shoot this game with an air pistol, or a beebee gun.....

[a.roberts]

Actually not really. The number of rounds one is allowed in a magazine are the huge part of divisional compliance......

The division requirements are:

Declare major -- you get to load 8 rounds in each magazine. Load more, welcome to open.....

Declare minor -- you get to load 10 rounds in each magazine. Load more, welcome to open.....

If you declare major, and subsequently bust chrono -- you're now minor and may load 10 rounds in each magazine.....

Seems simple to me.....

^ This seems to sum it up for me.

The whole, "Oh, I meant to declare Minor!" reeks of unsportsmanlike conduct.

You're a big boy/girl, you've got fingers, you can count to 8 when you load your mags. Or 10 if you declared Minor.

[uzi]

hello, on globall village they talk this subject and ipsc say change to minor not to open.

[Fireant]

Where does it say you can't. Don't we go by the quote that if the rule book doesn't say you can't do it then it is OK.

5.6.1.

Um, just looked there and challenged and changed are two different things. It says that without a chrono another shooter or match official can not callenge my PF, it does not say I can't change it does it? Nope not from what I read. You are trying to read too much into the rule like everyone else is with the division requirements. No where in the rule book does it say declaring a PF locks you in. I can shoot 170 PF loads all day and decide to have the extra rounds and be scored minor. Once again show the rule that says I can't. Just like there is no rule that says choosing a PF bumps me to open if I don't make it. Would you bump me to open if I declared minor with a 40 and went 169 at the chrono? Of course not, because you would say the minimum pf for the division is 125. It seems that for once I simply live in the wrong region since IPSC seems to read our rule like I do. They did pretty much base theirs off of ours. Everyone wants to keep saying it is very clear, when in fact it is not. The BE members are a small minority of the overall shooters. I bet a sampling of the larger population would show a big split in how people would rule on this.