Jesse Tischauser Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 After shooting and watching my fellow squad mates shoot the rifle portions of the Ozark Championship from the different barricades and windows I came to the conclusion that not all body types and supports are created equal. We had shooters with various builds in our squad from the 6' 9" Rustin B. to the 3' 9" Albert P and everything in between. It was interesting to see how the different heights of the shooters was either a distinct advantage or dissadvantage. Sometimes the tall guy could reach the barricade support in reverse kneeling position and sometimes the short guy could only do so comfortably. Personally I struggled with those weird posisiton so I decided to build the barricade you see below so I could practice kneeling, seated, reverse kneeling, half a$$ prone, standing, standing on my tip toes, etc. Then I got to thinkin' and you know that is when it gets dangerous. Why don't MDs and RM's set up their windows and baricades with an angle to them so that every shooter no matter their size or shape gets the option to take the same supprot as the other shooters? Its really not much more difficult to cut the bottom sill of a port at a 30° slope or to srew that 2"x4" support crooked rather than level. What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Jesse, Makes sense to me. I really don't like it when it is obviously unfair to a taller/shorter person. Guess I'm kinda in the middle dimensionally but it just isn't right when you handicap someone for their build or because they are left handed. A nice angle would be a great equalizer. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I have seen "tall" ports that would accommodate shooters of different heights. Not a bad idea actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Good idea. On the one you built, a tall person can use the top "crook" to get a 2 sided support while a shorter person may have to go prone on the right to get the same support. That cross angle is better for a left handed shooter away from the posts than a right hand shooter. Also, you have not put in anyhting so make Horner shoot upsdie down to level the playing field What if you took the same set up, but had a diagonal from the right and left falling to the middle, like an "M". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Is Rustin here on Enos? Could I get a measurement to the bottom of his handguard when he is standing shooting offhand? Lots of short people to measure I think I will build something on this line for the CO April match. The "JT" barricade... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Rustin's handle is Boomfab on Enos. I have to stand on my tip toes to use the right upright for support and going prone to use the left support is too high. If I came upon this particular baricade at a match I would be looking for the spot that allowed the best reverse kneeling for me. I like the idea of an M shape or even an X shaped support because it is equally easy to use for lefties as well but you gotta take away that center V so that nobody can reverse kneel in that area. Maybe you could put a Red Neck Tactical Hedgehog in there to keep the shooters out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I like the idea of not trying to level the playing field. Of course take out the extremes but other than that, deal with it. I'm short and fat, not exactly the perfect build for this game, too damn bad for me. I've seen short people have an advantage with low ports, should we change the ground level so too tall doesn't have to drop down further than some who is 5'? If you want to use a barricade like that, cool. Very nice idea. But to me, adapting to pain in the ass shooting positions, regardless of your body type, is a shooting skill. Just my $.025 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I'm short and fat, not exactly the perfect build for this game, too damn bad for me. Me too! Working on a shooting sled where the higher the normal force, the faster you roll down the tracks. That'll teach those guys to eat more hamburgers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 adapting to pain in the ass shooting positions, regardless of your body type, is a shooting skill. Just my $.025 I agree, and for some reason (maybe my penchant for S&M???) one of my favorite aspects of the sport! The trick is to make it a pain in the ass for all shooters, which can be difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Haven't we already agreed that the old leveling the playing field arguement is mute as the good shooters (Bryan 45) practice everything which why they always beat the average shooters? The trick is to make it a pain in the ass for all shooters, which can be difficult. This is exaclty my thinking but since it is so difficult i.e. a tall port is good for tall guys and a low port is good for short guys,etc, etc. So why not make the ports good for everyone rather than bad for everyone and let the shooter decide which type of shooting position he/she wants to take on the port/barricade. The only real way I can think of to make a shooting position either as hard or as easy for every shooter is to make everyone either shoot off hand, shoot prone, or shoot off of a vertical pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 I like the idea of not trying to level the playing field. Of course take out the extremes but other than that, deal with it. I'm short and fat, not exactly the perfect build for this game, too damn bad for me. I've seen short people have an advantage with low ports, should we change the ground level so too tall doesn't have to drop down further than some who is 5'? If you want to use a barricade like that, cool. Very nice idea. But to me, adapting to pain in the ass shooting positions, regardless of your body type, is a shooting skill. Just my $.025 That is why I like all ports 6' high We will have a milk crate for you to stand on at the next match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Haven't we already agreed that the old leveling the playing field arguement is mute as the good shooters (Bryan 45) practice everything which why they always beat the average shooters? The trick is to make it a pain in the ass for all shooters, which can be difficult. This is exaclty my thinking but since it is so difficult i.e. a tall port is good for tall guys and a low port is good for short guys,etc, etc. So why not make the ports good for everyone rather than bad for everyone and let the shooter decide which type of shooting position he/she wants to take on the port/barricade. The only real way I can think of to make a shooting position either as hard or as easy for every shooter is to make everyone either shoot off hand, shoot prone, or shoot off of a vertical pole. If youre going to try to design every stage so they're identical for all shooters no matter their height, weight, age, leftie/rightie, etc etc youre fighting an uphill battle Yes, try to avoid the extremes, but making it equal for everyone will most likely just result in the majority getting bland stages. I'd much rather have one low and one tall port and struggle on one, or both, than two easy ports in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) If youre going to try to design every stage so they're identical for all shooters no matter their height, weight, age, leftie/rightie, etc etc youre fighting an uphill battle I am not talking about every stage or even stage desisgn here just the height of ports and barricades. There is some serious disparity on this aspect of almost every structure we shoot from. Edited October 5, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mlmiller1 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Not really talking about leveling the field, more about equal challenge for all shooters. Levelling the field is more about not having an equal challenge. An example would be intentionally trying to trip up the higher ranked shooters with some prop to handicap them, thereby "levelling the field". If your top local shooter is very short, go & make all the ports too tall for him then tell him he needs to adjust. Not fair! Equal challenge as much as possible. MLM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Playing field IS level, all have the same challenge, some are just better for a variety if reasons whether chosen or not. I like Jesse's idea for some stages. Don't make it so vanilla that everyone does the same thing, make the shooter figure out what works best for him. I think this kind of assembly does just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 There is something to be said for an even playing field. But there is also something to be said for a practical challenge. When you carry your rifle in the field, whether that is to shoot fuzzy critters or people you don't usually have angled barricades to get that perfect height. I wouldn't mind having a few of these, but the majority should be varied heights. Some easy for tall and difficult (not impossible) for short folks and vice versa. But I still look at this as a practical application of skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 (edited) Chuck, your mention of practical ports sparked a light bulb- the ports at the Pro-Am on both Am and Pro 5. Obviously the ports on the car were to force the shooter to use some concealment, but they were practical. This is makes things fun and challenging (for me anyway). Edited October 5, 2011 by Bryan 45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 5, 2011 Author Share Posted October 5, 2011 Chuck, your mention of practical ports sparked a light bulb- the ports at the Pro-Am on both Am and Pro 5. Obviously the ports on the car were to force the shooter to use some concealment, but they were practical. This is makes things fun and challenging (for me anyway). The ProAm on Stage 4 were perfect. It gave nobody an advantage because it was so damn low! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stlhead Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) Jesse, I think you are missing the point of the props we shoot off. They are not meant to be good for anyone. If they do happen to be good for a particular person then they got lucky. The point of most barricade type shooting props is to offer some measure of a rest to allow the shooter a better chance at hitting a distant or smaller target, without providing too much stability so as to remove the challenge. What you are advocating is turning each shooting position into one that more closely resembles a bench rest. I still find merit in keeping to the practical roots of 3 gun. Solving the shooting problem using what is available is a big part of the fun. Can you find a rest that works for YOU on the junker car, or the rock, or the fence post, or the plywood barricade? One skill that is being tested by a stage is the ability of the shooter to use whatever on the stage that they think will help. I have seen people take a rest off the cable guy wire that braces the slide at Ironman, I have seen a fellow jump up on top of a table to gain height to shoot. These shooters where solving the problem using creative thinking and the resources they had available. We need to leave the challenges in our sport, they add to it, not detract from it. Our sport has evolved over time going farther from it's practical origins, more game less "tactical", and that is good in many ways, but if we go too far in sanitizing the game it will loose it's appeal to many. There are a lot of threads lately that seem to be advocating changes to our sport. Discussion is good, change is inevitable, but let's be careful, change just for changes sake is not going to improve our game. Let's not rush into anything, We have not even had enough time to decide if 1x in limited was a good change let alone allowing 10 rnds in a He Man pistol. Cheers! Edited October 6, 2011 by Stlhead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-Ho Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I like the idea of not trying to level the playing field. Of course take out the extremes but other than that, deal with it. I'm short and fat, not exactly the perfect build for this game, too damn bad for me. I've seen short people have an advantage with low ports, should we change the ground level so too tall doesn't have to drop down further than some who is 5'? If you want to use a barricade like that, cool. Very nice idea. But to me, adapting to pain in the ass shooting positions, regardless of your body type, is a shooting skill. Just my $.025 That is why I like all ports 6' high We will have a milk crate for you to stand on at the next match. Hmmmm maybe I can borrow Maurice's chainsaw and make my own ports Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 Jesse, I think you are missing the point of the props we shoot off. They are not meant to be good for anyone. If that is the point then that needs to happen. The support provided needs to be purposely different so we all get to see a different advantage or disadvantage. This does not happen very often which is why I started this thread. I never expected to see the barricade in the picture at any match. We have a lot of new matches popping up all the time. I am helping run the one at our club now. I learn something new every time I setup a stage. I was hoping the new stage designers, MD's and RM's out there like myself would be thinking more about this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 That's a great barricade design for training. I might try to recreate one on my range. Would allow you to shoot at different spots to practice different heights. How tall did you go on the left side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaiserb Posted October 6, 2011 Share Posted October 6, 2011 I like the idea of not trying to level the playing field. Of course take out the extremes but other than that, deal with it. I'm short and fat, not exactly the perfect build for this game, too damn bad for me. I've seen short people have an advantage with low ports, should we change the ground level so too tall doesn't have to drop down further than some who is 5'? If you want to use a barricade like that, cool. Very nice idea. But to me, adapting to pain in the ass shooting positions, regardless of your body type, is a shooting skill. Just my $.025 That is why I like all ports 6' high We will have a milk crate for you to stand on at the next match. Hmmmm maybe I can borrow Maurice's chainsaw and make my own ports You could if I can borrow it for the short ports, all you little guys always get even with me by making me shoot under a 3' high barrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Tischauser Posted October 6, 2011 Author Share Posted October 6, 2011 (edited) That's a great barricade design for training. I might try to recreate one on my range. Would allow you to shoot at different spots to practice different heights. How tall did you go on the left side? Thanks! On the high side I went just high enough that I could shoot against the right post while uncomfortably standing on my tip toes. I figured if i coudl get good at shooting on my tip toes anything else would be easy. Edited October 6, 2011 by Jesse Tischauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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