Which Gunsmithing Course(s)?

[feederic]

I am very interested in taking some gunsmithing courses for 1911/2011.

Right now I am very interested in the C&S, Bob Rodgers, and Larry Vickers classes. Has anybody here taken these courses (I know a few have)? Would it be necessary to take multiple courses, say 2 or 3, of them before being able to reliably trouble shoot and make accurate reliable 1911 patterned classes? I wouldn't mind taking all of them eventually, but I was wondering if it would be overkill.

[Guy Neill]

The C&S course is very good. No experience with the others.

The C&S course has you build a single stack (possibly hi-cap) in the week you are there. At least when I went through it we had single stacks.

It's a full week often with days taking more than 8 hours, but you will come away with a very good understanding of the gun and making it work. Plus you have all the hand tools needed for future use.

Guy

[polizei1]

If I had a choice, it would be Rodgers.

Edited September 21, 2011 by polizei1

[JCReid]

I have take Bob's class and have assisted Bob in teaching his last two classes. If you have the opportunity to get on his list and take a class, don't pass it up. It is truly a once in a lifetime experience. If you have any questions about the class please don't hesitate to ask.

[GuyC]

How much are they?

[JCReid]

Info for Rodgers' Class

This link should answer a lot of the detailed questions about Bob's class.

[feederic]

About 2-4k. You end up building a custom 1911 though from parts, and end up with top notch tools.

[Ozarksman]

Just so you know...I live near Bob (less than 10 miles), know Bob fairly well, have shot matches and some long range rifle with him as well as had him work on my 1911.

That being said...You will not go wrong taking a class from Bob. He's a great guy, has a great personality and tells as good a story as anyone can. His metal work on a gun is unsurpassed. That combined with his being so anal about the minute details of his product, you will find nobody out there producing a better custom 1911 than Bob.

Be sure to ask him about his sidekick Drayton.

[feederic]

Well it looks like 10-8 and LAV will be hosting a class in Cerritos next spring, which is right up my alley. I planned on taking Bob's class, but this will be so much easier in terms of travel and lodging accommodations. I assume the knowledge I take away would be fairly similar no matter which class I take? Or are there some fundamental philosophy differences between the two that I am unaware of and should consider?

[BlueOvalBruin]

That should be a good one. The problem with these classes is you get to build a typical .45 SS 1911, which you might not have any use for. I wonder if they would let you build a SS .40 with a ramped barrel.

I’ve decided to try the self taught approach for now. Maybe if I get some time the next couple years I’ll take one of those classes and I’m sure I’ll have a ton of questions by then. I just finished fitting a .40 barrel to my kimber 10mm and hope to test fire it in the next few weeks. My kimber is a POS and it made the job a lot tougher than it needed to be.

Do you think Mr. Vickers would be willing to teach you how to do a 1-1.5lb trigger job?

[feederic]

That should be a good one. The problem with these classes is you get to build a typical .45 SS 1911, which you might not have any use for. I wonder if they would let you build a SS .40 with a ramped barrel.

I’ve decided to try the self taught approach for now. Maybe if I get some time the next couple years I’ll take one of those classes and I’m sure I’ll have a ton of questions by then. I just finished fitting a .40 barrel to my kimber 10mm and hope to test fire it in the next few weeks. My kimber is a POS and it made the job a lot tougher than it needed to be.

Do you think Mr. Vickers would be willing to teach you how to do a 1-1.5lb trigger job?

True, a widebody 2011 with a ramped barrel and a light trigger job would be an awesome class to offer

I imagine he would not teach me how to bring a trigger down that light in any ordinary circumstances. From what I can find on the net, most of his students guns are in the 4-4.5 lb range since the focus is on fighting and carry guns.

[Flexmoney]

I took the C&S class with Bob...when he was looking to gunsmith. I think he then went on to take the Jack Weigand course too (which featured more machine work, IIRC).

The C&S course is mostly hand tools (no mill needed really).

I would imagine that Bob melds the courses together.

[Flexmoney]

C&S also offers a trigger job class. (If one were to get a fitted kit from STI...those that want the double stack 40 version)

[kahana]

Well it looks like 10-8 and LAV will be hosting a class in Cerritos next spring, which is right up my alley.

feederic

You might check with 10-8 or LAV on the status of that course.

The 10-8 web site shows the Cerritos course as

"STATUS: RESCHEDULED / TBA"

I was checking into the Feb course in FL and was told the CA class was canceled.

gr

Edited December 4, 2011 by kahana

[Roadrider18]

Bill Laughridge (Cylinder & Slide) offers very good classes. He also offers the 2 Day barrel fitting (hard fit method) in conjunction with the 5 day pistol building course. Bob Rodgers took Bill's class about 9 years ago.

Most of the other names mentioned have been through Bill's shop at one time or another for advice.

Before you take any course, practice filing a 1" piece of 1" round steel into a cube with square facets and equal sides! Bill L's idea to humor you while you await the class!

Before you go, you should have sound filing skills in order to do quality work.

C&S offers classes in both Freemont, NE and Virginia Beach, VA.

Have fun!

Edited December 4, 2011 by Roadrider18

[JCReid]

Feed, I would not assume that the information in these classes is all the same. If you are worried about the gun being competitive in USPSA, I have over 25K through my class gun and I used it to win the Area 4 championship this year. No a .40 cal or a widebody is not an option in the class but that is not what Bob does. Bob does nothing but build single stack .45's that run absolutely 100% of the time. I can also assure you that Bob stresses over every gun that gets built in class as much as he does the guns that come off of his bench. If that sounds like someone you would like to learn from, then I would highly suggest Bob's class, you will never regret it.

Flex, there is zero machining taught in Bob's class. There simply is not enough time in 6 days to even begin to cover that.

Edited December 8, 2011 by JCReid

[Roadrider18]

I am a huge fan of Bill Laughridge.

Once you meet Bill, you will understand why.

Bill has been studying/'smithing on the 1911 for well over 40 years. He still gets together with folks like Bob Marvel to find better ways to 'smith on the 1911.

I am not deriding BR or LAV at all. But, these guys were just starting their careers as a fly fishing guide in the Keys or chasing bad guys all over the world when Bill was 'smithing for competitive shooters at national events.

LAV learned his skills at the bench of John Miller, the outstanding armor for the AMU many decades ago. Not sure who developed the 'hard fit' barrel method. Some folks think John Miller while others point to Jim Clark Sr. Doesn't really matter, both were pioneers on developing the 1911 into a pistol for marksmen and competitive shooters.

As far as gleaming institutional information on the 1911, you can get that about anywhere. But, why a technique works or does not work fitting over-sized parts in a 1911, very few people possess that knowledge let alone want to serve as a conduit for passing information to the next generation. Also, remember, being able to assemble a great 1911 does not make a great teacher.

BR has exploded on the 'smithing scene since forced out of the day long intense sunshine on bonefish flats (fly fishin' for bones; my other money pit addiction besides shooting). Bob does excellent work no doubt about it. I have heard nothing but glowing reviews as a 1911 teacher as well.

Milling: not something one of these guys is going to teach you. Takes way too long to learn even simple machining skills. Best to pick these skills up at a machining course at your local community college offering 'trade' training.

Now talk about an expense....wait til you start pricing out mills! A 42" table with CAD/CAM made in China is going to set you back a pretty coin! What is even more amazing...a 1964 Bridgeport 42" mill will cost even more! I learned on my high school buddy dad's mill (early 70s). I made plenty of unintentional boat anchors and fishin' weights learning how to mill.

Edited December 8, 2011 by Roadrider18

[BlueOvalBruin]

Feed, I would not assume that the information in these classes is all the same. If you are worried about the gun being competitive in USPSA, I have over 25K through my class gun and I used it to win the Area 4 championship this year. No a .40 cal or a widebody is not an option in the class but that is not what Bob does. Bob does nothing but build single stack .45's that run absolutely 100% of the time. I can also assure you that Bob stresses over every gun that gets built in class as much as he does the guns that come off of his bench. If that sounds like someone you would like to learn from, then I would highly suggest Bob's class, you will never regret it.

Flex, there is zero machining taught in Bob's class. There simply is not enough time in 6 days to even begin to cover that.

I have no doubt that one could produce an excellent gun that would be reliable and accurate and work great in SS division. But, I already have .45 single stacks that don’t get used very much and if I were to pay a bunch of money on a class, I’d rather build a gun I would use. I would also be more interested in learning the skills to build the guns I would end up building, which normally have a ramped hybrid or bull barrel. I’ll bet the teachers would probably make an exception for a .40 single stack, a 2011 might be a stretch though. Wouldn’t hurt to ask.

[JCReid]

Blue, it does not sound like Bob's class would be the one for you. I have helped Bob teach the last two classes and I will for sure be at the next two helping. I can assure you that Bob will not teach you to fit a .40 or a ramped or a bull barrel. But you are right it never hurts to ask.

[feederic]

C&S also offers a trigger job class. (If one were to get a fitted kit from STI...those that want the double stack 40 version)

I didn't know that. A trigger job class is something I will take note of.

Well it looks like 10-8 and LAV will be hosting a class in Cerritos next spring, which is right up my alley.

feederic

You might check with 10-8 or LAV on the status of that course.

The 10-8 web site shows the Cerritos course as

"STATUS: RESCHEDULED / TBA"

I was checking into the Feb course in FL and was told the CA class was canceled.

gr

That's a bummer! I would sure love a FL vacation though and build myself up a SS. I got some timeshare time to burn up, maybe this is the time?

Bill Laughridge (Cylinder & Slide) offers very good classes. He also offers the 2 Day barrel fitting (hard fit method) in conjunction with the 5 day pistol building course. Bob Rodgers took Bill's class about 9 years ago.

Most of the other names mentioned have been through Bill's shop at one time or another for advice.

Before you take any course, practice filing a 1" piece of 1" round steel into a cube with square facets and equal sides! Bill L's idea to humor you while you await the class!

Before you go, you should have sound filing skills in order to do quality work.

C&S offers classes in both Freemont, NE and Virginia Beach, VA.

Have fun!

I actually bought some files and round steel to try this out. How proficient at filing must one really be in order to take one of these classes?

Feed, I would not assume that the information in these classes is all the same. If you are worried about the gun being competitive in USPSA, I have over 25K through my class gun and I used it to win the Area 4 championship this year. No a .40 cal or a widebody is not an option in the class but that is not what Bob does. Bob does nothing but build single stack .45's that run absolutely 100% of the time. I can also assure you that Bob stresses over every gun that gets built in class as much as he does the guns that come off of his bench. If that sounds like someone you would like to learn from, then I would highly suggest Bob's class, you will never regret it.

Flex, there is zero machining taught in Bob's class. There simply is not enough time in 6 days to even begin to cover that.

I didn't think they would be all the same. I more or less just want to know what it takes to build a rock solid 1911, and kind of would like to make it an art I can hand down one day.

Feed, I would not assume that the information in these classes is all the same. If you are worried about the gun being competitive in USPSA, I have over 25K through my class gun and I used it to win the Area 4 championship this year. No a .40 cal or a widebody is not an option in the class but that is not what Bob does. Bob does nothing but build single stack .45's that run absolutely 100% of the time. I can also assure you that Bob stresses over every gun that gets built in class as much as he does the guns that come off of his bench. If that sounds like someone you would like to learn from, then I would highly suggest Bob's class, you will never regret it.

Flex, there is zero machining taught in Bob's class. There simply is not enough time in 6 days to even begin to cover that.

I have no issue learning how to build a .45 single stack that runs like a scalded dog. Its looking like I need to change my plans and look into the C&S class now.

Very handy info everyone!

[Roadrider18]

You should be able to file on a flat plane without creating multiple facets. It takes a bit of practice to learn how to hold the file flat and keep it parallel to the surface you are filing.

Practice, practice and practice.

Kind of like shooting!

Edited December 10, 2011 by Roadrider18

[Flexmoney]

When me, Bob and a couple of other guys that took the C&S class...none of us could file very well. Bob L. had stressed that we ought to be practicing before the class, but none of us seemed to have been.

We also did more work with the Dremel than I imagined we would. (for example, doing the bulk of material removal when lowering an ejection port)

One quick key to filing...get your work in a good place in your vice, such that you can hit it with a smooth, even and level stroke. (The stroke can be fairly repeatable...kinda like shooting a basketball free-throw...consistent.)

=====================

A bit more info for those that want a double-stack 40...

STI makes a frame kit...which is a fitted frame and slide. They also used to make a Short Block Kit, which is a fitted frame, slide and barrel.

I would imagine, but don't know, that you could drop an STI beavertail in with little trouble.

And, there are some trigger kits (C&S for example) that might drop in as well (they are pre-fitted to one another...at least).

You would need sight cuts, but you can send just the slide out for those...often with a better turn around time than you see for other things.

Bill L., at C&S told our class that he wanted to keep us all on the same page...using the same stuff...building the same gun. As has been said...it is a LOT to get done in one week. But, he might be open to doing a class if EVERYBODY in it was also building a double stack gun. ???

[feederic]

Bill L., at C&S told our class that he wanted to keep us all on the same page...using the same stuff...building the same gun. As has been said...it is a LOT to get done in one week. But, he might be open to doing a class if EVERYBODY in it was also building a double stack gun. ???

I just talked to John at C&S about this. He did say that a custom double stack class is doable, but it would need to be planned in advanced. Since the 2012 class schedule is out already, he said it probably wouldn't be possible until around 2013. There would need to be about 6 participants at a minimum.