gans Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I am not on CA Roster of Handguns Certified for sale in CA. So, I am not allowed to build guns for CA residents. Also, I am not allowed to install compensators on threaded 1911 barrels. PC 12276.1(a)(4)(A). If I missed something, let me know. It seems that those are CA laws and not my policies, that are the problem. Gary, thanks for posting. I, too, was hoping to have you do some work at some point in the future. Re: the roster, you don't need to be on it as you're not producing a new gun with a new serial number. The roster is only for newly manufactured guns. Per the ATF, the serialized portion of the firearm (the frame) is the firearm. In order for a CA resident to have a frame, she would have to go through the registration process (whether purchasing it through a private party transfer, obtaining it through an intra-familial transfer, or coming into the state with them as a new resident; there are some exceptions that are unimportant, but do not affect the fact that you are not producing a new firearm) and it would be that person's gun/frame, not yours. You are simply a gunsmith, not a seller or manufacturer of a firearm, and have temporary possession (not ownership, like if you were selling the frame). Any frame that would be sent to you would not need to be re-registered to re-enter the state and could be sent directly back to the owner in CA (following the ATF guidelines for interstate shipping of firearms, as you would for any other resident). Re: compensators, I went through this with the CA DOJ many years ago. The statute you cited describes certain features that will lead a pistol to be designated an assault weapon, which are illegal in CA. The text reads: 12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shallalso mean any of the following: . . . (4) A semiautomatic pistol that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following: (A) A threaded barrel, capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer. The important part of that is what's underlined: "capable of accepting a flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer." I described a compensator to the DOJ folks as both a flash-enhancer and a loudener. More importantly, however, I pointed out that on cone-comped guns, the gun is not capable of accepting anything as removing the comp makes it essentially useless. The DOJ person I spoke with said, in essence, no problem. An overzealous prosecutor might be able to make a case with a threaded bull-barrel, where the owner has removed the Loctited-on comp and reassembled the gun, but what you would have sent would not be "capable of accepting" anything. It'd be the owner's ass on the line, not yours. HTH. You're still legally able to provide CAliens with your services, if you're so inclined. Disclaimer [since I'm a law student]: the above is not legal advice. Consult an attorney (whether private or CA DOJ) for legal advice. ... A frame is registered, but it is not a gun. Once a gun is built, federal exise tax must be paid on it. If the gunsmith builds it and sells it, they are the manufacturer and they pay for it. If a customer buys the frame and has it built, then they are the manufacturer and pays the tax when they sell it. That is federal law. Please let me know where CA state law differs. As far as comps go, I used to pin and weld the pins in place. But, that was not good enough. When a gun was tested for certification, they screwed the comp off and the threads were destroyed, but they rejected it any way. I am not interested in consulting with an attorney. Let CA change their laws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOvalBruin Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 A frame is registered, but it is not a gun. Once a gun is built, federal exise tax must be paid on it. If the gunsmith builds it and sells it, they are the manufacturer and they pay for it. If a customer buys the frame and has it built, then they are the manufacturer and pays the tax when they sell it. That is federal law. Please let me know where CA state law differs. I’m not arguing your point here, but this doesn’t mean a California customer can’t send you their registered frame and have you build it up. Federal Law might not recognize a frame as a gun but California law does. When we buy stripped AR lowers from a vendor or bare STI/single stack frames from other people, we go through the same dealer registration of sale paperwork process as if it were a complete gun. In the case of STI or single stack frames, during the transfer process the frame is also registered as a handgun. In the case of a California customer sending you a frame plus parts to build up, the process is the same as a Nevada or Kansas customer. That California customer, just like a Nevada customer, would then need to pay the excise tax when they sell the gun. As far as comps go, I used to pin and weld the pins in place. But, that was not good enough. When a gun was tested for certification, they screwed the comp off and the threads were destroyed, but they rejected it any way. That’s unfortunate, but it’s still the customer who would be liable for any violations of state regulations. Plus, I’ve never seen any threads on a trubore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PINMAN44 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Plain and simple some people just don't want to deal with the nonsense of Calfornia's laws. Certain manufacturers and businesses won't sell to Cali... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gans Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 A frame is registered, but it is not a gun. Once a gun is built, federal exise tax must be paid on it. If the gunsmith builds it and sells it, they are the manufacturer and they pay for it. If a customer buys the frame and has it built, then they are the manufacturer and pays the tax when they sell it. That is federal law. Please let me know where CA state law differs. I’m not arguing your point here, but this doesn’t mean a California customer can’t send you their registered frame and have you build it up. Federal Law might not recognize a frame as a gun but California law does. When we buy stripped AR lowers from a vendor or bare STI/single stack frames from other people, we go through the same dealer registration of sale paperwork process as if it were a complete gun. In the case of STI or single stack frames, during the transfer process the frame is also registered as a handgun. In the case of a California customer sending you a frame plus parts to build up, the process is the same as a Nevada or Kansas customer. That California customer, just like a Nevada customer, would then need to pay the excise tax when they sell the gun. As far as comps go, I used to pin and weld the pins in place. But, that was not good enough. When a gun was tested for certification, they screwed the comp off and the threads were destroyed, but they rejected it any way. That’s unfortunate, but it’s still the customer who would be liable for any violations of state regulations. Plus, I’ve never seen any threads on a trubore. The point is that either the gunsmith or the customer with the frame will become the manufacturer. The manufacturer must be registered with CA DOJ. You state that CA considers the frame as the manufacturer. Where is that in their law? How would they test it for function or safety for certification? What caliber and length barrel is a frame? I am missing a lot, please explain more. The trubore barrel is not threaded and doesn't apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 A frame is registered, but it is not a gun. Once a gun is built, federal exise tax must be paid on it. If the gunsmith builds it and sells it, they are the manufacturer and they pay for it. If a customer buys the frame and has it built, then they are the manufacturer and pays the tax when they sell it. That is federal law. Please let me know where CA state law differs. Tax law differs from the law of what constitutes a firearm. 18 USC 923(i) states that licensed manufacturers must serialize receivers. That serialized receiver is what federal law contemplates as the firearm for all the laws designating procedures that must be followed for sale, shipping, etc. For tax purposes, they include in the definition of "manufacture" what you do as a gunsmith. Legally, they are distinct concepts. Interesting read on the tax side (the .gov needs its money): http://www.ttb.gov/firearms/faet-faqs.shtml#gunsmiths As far as comps go, I used to pin and weld the pins in place. But, that was not good enough. When a gun was tested for certification, they screwed the comp off and the threads were destroyed, but they rejected it any way. That's unfortunate and, IMO, (indirectly) violative of CA's law as it is written. I'd bet if someone were to pursue a case against the testing facility (seeking injunctive relief) or were a CA resident charged with violating that law, they'd have a very good case to make simply based on the language of the statute. Obviously, it's your prerogative how you decide to operate your business. BOB and I (and, undoubtedly, others) simply find it unfortunate that CA's laws have made you decide it's not worth engaging in business with folks in the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old506 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 (edited) Gans will build my next gun. Edited August 5, 2011 by old506 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 Why should a manufacturer, gunsmith, dealer or anyone else have to do business with a state, or people in that state if they don't want to. It's a free market. If he chooses to not risk imprisonment, or other loss of his business, to do custom work for folks in one state, it's his choice. I've never met Gary, never done business with him, but I'm damn sure not going to harass him into doing something he's not comfortable. You guys offer your opinions of the law, opinions not tested in court, or even offered by attorneys for that matter. The opionion that a cone comp barrel cannot accept a flash hider or suppressor is just that, an opionion. One by the way which I think is not well informed. I can very easily take a cone comp blank and make it eternally an A2 Flash hider off an AR. For that matter I know several comps that are cut at 1/2x28. If I unscrew the cone comp, trim the comp and thread an A2 flash hider on I bet I could get the gun to fire. Maybe not well, maybe not accurately, but that doesn't matter for the purposes of the law. I know a lot of Cali shooters play fast and loose with the laws down there. Whether it's magazines, AR's or other violations. Hoping that no one will check them or know enough. As far as speaking to someone at CA DOJ and getting an opinion...so what. I can call the ATF NFA branch and ask the same question 5 days a week and get 6 answers. Unless it's in writing it doesn't matter. I'm betting I could do the same with CA DOJ. As far as the argument that the liability falls on the gun owner not the shipper, this is not correct. If the gun is used in a crime, including just existing in violation, and some political DA or plaintiff decides to try and make a case they dang sure will try to pull every defendant they can. STI, GANS, Bedell whoever. That's not unique to CA but any state. However the mere fact that a plain old Open gun could be a legal violation and result in charges doesn't leave me with any warm fuzzies. The Cali gun laws suck and it's not the fault of the gun owners that live there. That's the reason I'm still willing as an FFL to ship down there. But every time I do it makes me feel like a criminal. And that's with being 100% in compliance with the law. If I had more business, enough that I had a waiting list, I'd quit doing business there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueOvalBruin Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 The point is that either the gunsmith or the customer with the frame will become the manufacturer. The manufacturer must be registered with CA DOJ. You state that CA considers the frame as the manufacturer. Where is that in their law? How would they test it for function or safety for certification? What caliber and length barrel is a frame? I am missing a lot, please explain more. The trubore barrel is not threaded and doesn't apply. California considers a bare frame to be a manufactured gun. In the case of a bare STI frame, the manufacturer is STI. A person cannot buy a bare STI frame in California through the normal channels since the STI frame is not on the safe handgun roster. But there are a few exemptions that allow a person to buy a frame not on the safe handgun roster. 1. When a person moves to California they can legally bring a bare STI frame that they bought while they were a resident of another state. That person would then need to establish residency in California and register their frame as a handgun (using this form http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf). 2. A mother/father/grandmother/grandfather/son/daughter/gson/gdaughter who resides in another state and owns a bare STI frame can legally “gift” it to you. You still need to handle the transfer through an FFL, but the frame is exempt from the safe handgun roster. 3. There is also a “single-shot exemption” to the handgun roster. A bare frame or complete gun not on the roster is modified by an FFL or private party to satisfy single shot requirements (single shot mag plus 6+” barrel to bring the gun over 10.5” long). http://calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=383692 4. A California resident can buy a bare STI frame from another ca resident via a person-to-person transfer through an FFL. 5. Personal purchases by LEOs are exempt from the handgun roster. So, once a person obtains the STI frame from any of the above methods they can then do what they please to it. They can build it themselves or send it out to a gunsmith anywhere in the country to build it just as a Nevada resident would. Since the frame has already successfully been registered as a handgun, the handgun roster no longer applies. The law then treats a bare STI frame build-up the same as sending your XD to Springer Precision for a trigger job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 This thread has drifted way off course. I am going to close it for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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