RogerT Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Hi everyone. I broke my old CZ85 (cracked slide) and in panic bought a new CZ75B, over the phone.... to my disappointment it has a new safety feature, the firing pin block, that totally ruins the trigger feel. Question: 1. Is it within the rules of production division to use the new slide (with the firing pin block removed) on my old CZ85 frame? It's technically possible, the only difference between CZ75 and 85 is that the 85 has ambidextrous safety and slide release. 2. Is it within the rules to fit CZ 85 Combat parts on my CZ75B or CZ85? They are interchangeable and OEM parts, no machining needed. I'm thinking of extended mag release and adjustable sight. Why the h-ll don't I sell the CZ75B and get a real gun? Economics and gun regulation laws in Sweden prohibits me to own the guns I would like... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Assuming you are talking about IPSC Production Division: Short answer: nope (meaning no hope) . Long answer: Unless Cz sells CZ 75B slides specifically for installation on CZ85 frames, and other OFM parts (such as CZ 85 Combat parts) to be specifically installed on CZ75B or CZ 85, it is not allowed under APPENDIX D4 - Production Division.19. Original parts and components offered by the OFM as standard equipment, or as an option, for a specific model handgun on the IPSC approved handgun list are permitted, subject to the following... Sorry, but it sounds like you better buy a used CZ 85 like the one you broke, and use it as spare parts for your gun, or choose a new gun and stick with it. P.S. You can't even remove the firing pin block according to the same appendix 19.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing, are prohibited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 Agreed; under IPSC Production rules (not uspsa) the non-adjustable CZ-75B sights must be retained & you cannot use the adjustable LPA sights that are standard on the CZ-85 Combat. POSSIBLE EXCEPTION: I am not aware of CZ ever having offered the LPA adjustable sight as a FACTORY option on a 75B but it is possible that this has happened (everyone remember Sevigny using Heinie sights at the IPSC World Shoot? It was news to me that they were/are a Glock factory option but he had a letter from Glock as proof). Perhaps one of the CZ gurus here can answer (Angus? Iron9???). Looks like you will have to suffer with the CZ-75B's "Series 80" firing pin safety until you can sell the 75 & get permission to buy the 85 Combat in Sweden (how many USPSA 1911 shooters would tolerate a Series 80 safety? Not many). Sounds like Swedish handgun laws suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Hobdell Posted April 15, 2004 Share Posted April 15, 2004 The biggest deal I see here is the fact that CZ have been producing guns for many many years what they did in the past may help. I am running into the same problems. I am preparing for the europeans and have like questions that need to be answered, it seems to me that some manufactuerers are able to strecth the meaning of OFM, I know that tanfoglio have a production ready gun that come with a fibre optic fron sight, banned by USPSA. Glock produce a factory gun with heinie sights, maybe they have even made one with bomars? CZ produce the champion with an PA adjustable similar to the bomar, that is OFM so why can't we put that on a 78 or 85. Seems like these problems can only be addressed by the manufactuers. Does changing the slide on an 85 to a 75 slide constitute non OFM, it is after all the same slide with a differnt marking? It is a shame tht this great relatively new division is so complicated to understand what can nd cannot be done. Why can't USPSA and IPSC have the same rules USPSA's seem to be be the easiest to interpret Vince you out here?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerT Posted April 16, 2004 Author Share Posted April 16, 2004 OK, thanks folks for your input. Yes, I'm talking IPSC Production division. It seems like I'm stuck with this piece of ---- for a while. I may use it as PPC Stock Semi Auto in the future but just now I have to shoot it in IPSC as well (economy reasons..) until I buy something else. So, unless CZ has ever produced a CZ75B with adjustable sights, I have to use the fixed sights as well? Is it allowed to trim the trigger parts to get the best possible out of it? I could do without the creep in the trigger.... and a lighter DA pull. OR, if none of the above is within the rules for Production can I shoot Standard Minor instead, with adjustable sights and removed firing pin safety? Even on my old 85 frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 So, unless CZ has ever produced a CZ75B with adjustable sights, I have to use the fixed sights as well? No, if CZ offers for CZ75B adjustable sights as optional purchase, you're entitled to put on your gun any aftermarket (non OFM part) adjustable sight you like, provided you comply with 20.2 Aftermarket sights of the same type and kind offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun. Is it allowed to trim the trigger parts to get the best possible out of it? I could do without the creep in the trigger.... and a lighter DA pull. No, apart from polishing, you can't cut, trim, change shape, remove metal from internal components, according to: 19.1 Modifications to them (i.e. original parts), other than minor detailing, are prohibited. OR, if none of the above is within the rules for Production can I shoot Standard Minor instead, with adjustable sights and removed firing pin safety? Even on my old 85 frame? If you choose to shoot your gun in Standard Division, you can do basically whatever you like to your gun, provided you don't put on it optics, comps, ports, and provided it fits in the box. As uncle Vinnie pointed out sometime ago, Standard Division is basically a No-Comps, No-Ports, No-Optics, Fit-In-The-Box division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 Wouldn't it be a whole lot easier if Production was the; no optics, comps, ports, fit the box, 5lb double action, gun weight +/- 2oz of factory spec, minor division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 16, 2004 Share Posted April 16, 2004 I will never see the need for a trigger weight limit. (I'll be short on time. But, if somebody wants to debate that...please start another thread. I'll jump in on Monday.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 18, 2004 Share Posted April 18, 2004 Hi guys, For those of you having trouble understanding IPSC Production Division rules, here's a summary: 1. Only guns on the approved gun list may be used. Note that while the CZ75 and CZ85 are individually approved, a hybrid CZ is not approved. 2. Parts and components offered by the original firearm manufacturer ("OFM") for the specific gun you want to shoot are permitted except for +2 magazine base plates (see Point 19 of Appendix D4 for full details). 3. Parts and components offered by aftermarket manufacturers are prohibited except we allow some leeway in respect of sights, magazines and grips (see Point 20 of Appendix D4 for full details). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angus Hobdell Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 OK. Here goes. SO a direct question Vince. If I have a CZ85, CZ offer a Bomar copy sight in their catalogue, they tell me it has been fitted to the 75 and the 85 in the past and will be again the future. 1/ Can I machine a 75 or 85 slide to take this sight? 2/ or do I have to buy a new gun? 3/ better still just buy a new slide from CZ? 4/ As long as it is not a 75 slide on an 85 frame or vicey versey. (Shame CZ have to put the model designation on the slide or no one would know) Direct answer yes or no. I am confused still..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Angus, 1. No. You cannot machine the slide but you can machine the sight. 2. Yes & No (up to you), but my advice is "Get yourself a Glock and lose that nickel-plated sissy pistol" 3. Yes & No (up to you), but you could also fit aftermarket sights made by Bomar, Heinie etc. provided they are of the same "type & kind" offered by CZ. 4. No. Mix 'n' matching slides and frames gets you a severe spanking and a warm welcome to Open Division. Are we having fun yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerT Posted April 20, 2004 Author Share Posted April 20, 2004 It has been very interesting to follow this thread, and I have learned a lot about IPSC PD rules. I'm pleased to learn that I can indeed fit an adjustable sight to my CZ75B, it's an OFM option. I can also narrow my front post and add sight black to it. But this is all waisted time if I can't put a higher front post (they are available from CZ, but made for the IPSC Standard CZ 75 model, and fits without machining). In all, I will leave PD for a while and shoot Standard Minor till I get money to buy me a Glock or perhaps something italian, a Tanfoglio Stock Custom, a pistol wich is made and assembled by the Tanfoglio Custom Center. What about that for a PD racer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 a Tanfoglio Stock Custom, a pistol wich is made and assembled by the Tanfoglio Custom Center. What about that for a PD racer? As I already have posted somewhere else in these forums, at last WS XIII the whole Italian Production team (Brocanelli, 2nd - Zuccolo, 4th - Iacomini, 6th - Piccioni, 22nd) shot a Tanfoglio T95 Stock. It is legal for IPSC Production Division. Here a description (sorry for the bad english). It's a widely used Production gun here in Italy. More info on this gun in this thread. OTOH, Dave Sevigny seems to be quite happy with his Glock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I heard that Tanfoglio will soon produce another version of the Stock which will be (basically) their current standard pistol (Limited HC) with a double action trigger. It will have Fiber optic, magwell, ambi safety, long frame, bull barrel. It might be a hot set up for production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Thanks for the link Skywalker! Nice gun! I wish EAA would import the entire Tanfoglio line (including their 1911). As it is, EAA mostly offers the low end "witness" and who knows how you get them to sell you a Gold or Silver team. RogerT: I love my 85 Combat but I have seen very few problems with the Tanfoglios - particularly the old high end guns like the Tanfoglio that Springfield imported & re-named the "P9". Nice guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 I heard that Tanfoglio will soon produce another version of the Stock which will be (basically) their current standard pistol (Limited HC) with a double action trigger. It will have Fiber optic, magwell, ambi safety, long frame, bull barrel. And that is precisely the concept behind Production Divison. As I said in another thread (see here), we want the gun manufacturers to offer better products to competitors, in accordance with Production Division rules, instead of competitors having to buy what is effectively a piece of junk which they must immediately send to their gunsmith to fix. If and when Tanfoglio produce such a gun, you watch how fast other gun makers such as Beretta and others follow suit. And once again, IPSC competition is driving gun development ............. we created a new division, and the gun manufacturers are taking notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Talking about that, anybody tried the New XLda from Para Ordnance ? I'm sure if they had a magwell, that would be (for me 1911 system lover ) THE ideal Production Pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 Good to see PD is not going to turn into a gear race, I might hold on to my G17 money until I've seen that new Tanfog Julian. P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted April 20, 2004 Share Posted April 20, 2004 As I said in another thread (see here), we want the gun manufacturers to offer better products to competitors, in accordance with Production Division rules, instead of competitors having to buy what is effectively a piece of junk which they must immediately send to their gunsmith to fix.. Vince, Don't you see that that IS, in fact, an equipment race??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Don't you see that that IS, in fact, an equipment race??? No Sir. It's product development. Remember the first car to offer cup holders as standard equipment? Today, I can't think of a car which doesn't offer cup holders as standard equipment. The same theory applies to Production Division. If one manufacturer offers an option which proves popular, the rest will surely follow. For example, Glock now offers Heinie sights as a factory option, while Walther and Tanfoglio offer "Hi-Viz" sights as a factory option. This means that manufacturers are listening to their consumers and are offering the things consumers want, straight out of the factory, and this translates into cost savings for the consumer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Flex, as I see it, an equiment race is when competitors buy a gun, then "race" to a gunsmith to have it tricked out for competition, spending BIG bucks. Whenever we get better "out-of-the-box" products, by means of mass production, at lower prices, this is called "technological progress". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Boit Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Vince: Can you tell me which gun has cup holders straight out from factory please ? I'm interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 Hell, even my computer has a cup holder... ...too bad it tries to close itself every time I put a cup in it and shortly after tells me "Please, insert disk in unit D:" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted April 21, 2004 Share Posted April 21, 2004 The dang CRV I bought doesn't have cup holders in front! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerT Posted April 21, 2004 Author Share Posted April 21, 2004 ... instead of competitors having to buy what is effectively a piece of junk ... Thank's for the comment on my gun choice, Vince.. . But seriously. I applause the gun manufacturers that follow IPSC divisions news/changes/trends and make new models that fit each division!! But sadly enough, CZ has to designate each and every option available to a gun as a separate model, making it impossible for us with a simple and cheap "step in model" to buy some cheap OFM options and use them in IPSC PD. My reason to buy a cheap gun was to be able to spend more on ammo and practice, but it seems that I have to save up for a new Tangfoglio to be competetive. Skywalker, what is the price of a Tanfoglio Stock in Italy, and are there any gun shops on the net that you can recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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