Do you ever feel like your chasing your tail?

[Bronco]

Of the 3 you listed the Burris is the most bang for the buck, you can save on the mount by getting an Armalite mount for around $80.00. You might consider a used Meopta K-dot, I ran one for years and still consider it a top 3 gun optic.

What ever you end up with, put in the time to learn the reticle with the load your going to use. Hitting the targets is the main objective, but hitting them quickly gets you points.

[jn_fsu]

Whats the over all take on getting a higher quality scope in something like 3-9X42 30mm with a First Focal Plane Mil-dot (non illuminated)at twice the price ($600) verses the other scopes at half the price ($300+/-) with illuminated reticles? I'm looking for a training tool for me to start with as much as something I can use in competitions. Or is that the best approach? Buy it, run it, keep or swap depending on my evaluation and results? I'm not trying to go out and get the cadillac of scopes before I've used one. Just something solid I can learn to use well and improve thru time.

I'm thinking I think too much at times...

[Bronco]

I'm a FFP fan but I haven't seen an advantage in 3 gun comps. Works great for unknown distance steel matches and bolt gun comps. In 3 gun comps you want a scope that is fast on the close stuff (1X bright red dot big enough to pick up quickly) and when the power is turned up gives you a reticle that can be used for hold overs out to 500 yd. (used to be 300 yd. but keeps getting stretched out). This implies a second focal plane scope where the reticle doesn't shrink or grow depending on power setting. As with all things shooting it has more to do with the shooter than the equipment.

[MarkCO]

Whats the over all take on getting a higher quality scope in something like 3-9X42 30mm with a First Focal Plane Mil-dot (non illuminated)at twice the price ($600) verses the other scopes at half the price ($300+/-) with illuminated reticles? ... I'm thinking I think too much at times...

Yes you are. Scopes are a little like holsters...you can end up with a drawer full. I started with a Trijicon Reflex on my 16" AR becasue that was the cheapest sight I could get under the old SOF rules, shot one match and did not go back to 3 gun for several years. When I did, the rules had changed and I put a 4-12 scope on my 24" HB AR. The next year, I had a 20" with a 3-9. I then went to a 17" with a 2-7 for 2 years, then an 18" with a 1.5-6 and now I am at 16" with a 1-4. Optics have improved, but I failed to listen to some of the old sages telling me I was over-magnified. Call me hard-headed, but I could have saved myself some money and improvement if I had just listened. Even at 1.5x, I was way too slow on the close targets. I'm still slow at 1x, but it is not equipment limiting (not enough practice). A higher powered optic, 3-9s and such, with a red dot were most common on Open guns. However, now, with the good 1x at the low end, I think you will see a slow movement away from red-dots in open (funny how they are now in Limited).

The Tac30 is the best bang for the buck until you get up to $800 or so. If you want to spend more money on a higher quality optic, consider the Vortex Razor or the Swaro Z6i. In my opinion, those are the current Kings of scopes for 3gun. I'd be willing to bet we will see a few more come into this segment in the next year or so.

[ccoker]

I had 2 of the Vortex HDs in, both versions

very nice glass, but I thought they both were a bit finicky on eye placement and the reticle too small at 1x (FFP "issue") and not bright enough

I have a PST 1-4 MRAD coming and a Burris TAC 30 this week as well as the Meopta Kdot "soon" (keeps getting pushed back)

My gut feeling tells me the TAC 30 is going to better for 3 gun.

I have 2 1.5-6x42s, a S&B Flashdot #9 and a Kahles CSX circle dot

the latter is faster close with but the S&B has ever so slightly better resolution and with the ill off has s a nice clean crosshair intersection and the dot is smaller when lit, so, better for precision longer range shots than the Kahles..

Neither have any type of BDC for fast extended ranges say 3-500 yards

The S&B lives on my Wilson Combat 6.8 for hunting hogs (mainly) and deer, the Kahles floats around

[jn_fsu]

Thanks guys!

It has boiled down to these 4 scopes.

Nikon M223 1-4x20mm BDC 600 reticle for $260 ( with free Nikon mount)

Burris Fullfied TAC30 1-4x24mm($260)with American Defense Recon QD mount ($150)= $410

Aimpoint Comp C3 with American Defense QD mount $489

SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical 30mm Riflescope ($600)with LaRue Tactical SPR-E LT-139 ($215)= $815

I'm constantly going back and forth but my gut feeling is the Burris Fullfield TAC30 is the right choice.

[Alaskapopo]

Thanks guys!

It has boiled down to these 4 scopes.

Nikon M223 1-4x20mm BDC 600 reticle for $260 ( with free Nikon mount)

Burris Fullfied TAC30 1-4x24mm($260)with American Defense Recon QD mount ($150)= $410

Aimpoint Comp C3 with American Defense QD mount $489

SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical 30mm Riflescope ($600)with LaRue Tactical SPR-E LT-139 ($215)= $815

I'm constantly going back and forth but my gut feeling is the Burris Fullfield TAC30 is the right choice.

The TAC 30 and the Nickon as #2 on your list. Forget about the 3-9 way too slow up close and the Aimpoint is not good for longer stuff.

Pat

[esskay]

Also, if you want to save a little more $$, you could get a Burris PEPR mount

[jn_fsu]

I'll take a second look at the Burris PEPR mount. Thanks!

[ccoker]

I'll take a second look at the Burris PEPR mount. Thanks!

I bet someone is offering a combo package if you look around

[jn_fsu]

I know Nikon is. I was thinking was thinking the same thing.

[Neomonk21]

I know Nikon is. I was thinking was thinking the same thing.

I bought my TAC30 and PEPR mount from MidwayUSA. The TAC30 is $299. The PEPR is on sale for $69.99. Use the promotion code 351177 to get $30 off your order of $300 or more (doesn't include items out of stock or on sale and ends 5/20/2011). I had to add something to get my total over the $300 mark but luckily I needed some other things as well. My total was $366 shipped.

[mwc]

I just got back from the range after sighting in my new DPMS 3G1 with the Burris TAC 30 on the PEPR mount and I couldn't be happier. I was shooting the Federal 193F and PPI 69 grainers and my gun just loved the Federal stuff. The rifle shot consistant MOA all the way out to 300 yds and the BDC on the scope was right on with the 55 grain stuff.

I shot this rifle for the first time yesterday with irons and was able to hit paper plates at 300, but today with the TAC 30, I kept looking over my shoulder...cause I felt like I was cheating.

Mark

[UnlicensedDremel]

Let's see -

What are some of the similar scopes here?

Low end: KonusPro30, Millet DMS30

Medium: Nikon M223, Weaver Classic Extreme 1.5-4.5x24mm, Leatherwood, and Burris

Medium-High: Vortex Viper and Bushnell Elite 4200

High and Very High: IOR, Leupold, and others.

I'm probably leaving a few out (please let me know; thanks). But as for me, on a bit of a budget, it may help you some to know that in general (big picture), here is how I would address all but the high end:

First--I don't like any scope that cannot be used without batteries or when batteries are dead... So that rules out the Burris Mtac/tac30, and the Vortex Viper with EBR-5 reticle, correct? No fixed/etched reticle.

Second, I DO like to have some sort of illuminated dot or circle or triangle or something, whether batteries-only or FO-illuminated or a combo (preferably FO-only), NOT because they're needed in low light (I do a lot of hunting and they're NOT needed - if you can't see a heavy duplex reticle, you can't see well enough to shoot), but because I can put a cap on the front and use it as an OEG for CQB - there is nothing faster than an OEG. Can be used by anyone with two good eyes. Using the OEG (light on, front cover on), is not only geneally faster, it gives you instant unlimited eye relief regardless of the ER of the scope, and most importantly *completely negates* the need to have a true 1x (one power) on the low end. It's irrelevant what the low end is. Whether it's 1.25, 1.5, or 2, you still get an instant 1x when you put a cap on the front. Instant 1x, instant unlimited ER, and mondo fast sighting.

So this rules out for me the ones with no illumination - the Nikon and Elite 4200.

I've also ruled out the low end - the Konus and Millett. Read some bad on them. Also read some negative on the Leatherwood.

So that leaves one question - given that the Weaver is on supersale, is there ANYTHING the Vortex with TMCQ reticle can do that is worth an extra $230 over and above the Weaver? I can't think of it, but I can see it, maybe if you love that Vortex reticle. I think I know which one I'm going to get if I can round up the $$ before they sell out. Should sit nicely on the M17 or elsewhere.

YMMV.

[MarkCO]

First--I don't like any scope that cannot be used without batteries or when batteries are dead... So that rules out the Burris Mtac/tac30, and the Vortex Viper with EBR-5 reticle, correct? No fixed/etched reticle.

Nope. The Tac30 and MTAC both have etched reticles. Black, does not need batteries. Looks like you found your winner...

[UnlicensedDremel]

Oh well, thanks, in that case, I'm putting the Mtac/tac 30 back in the running. It seems pretty good, and the outer circle makes for a better CQB reticle (with or without using it as OEG) than just a dot. I think you're right - the Burris will likely trump the Weaver classic extreme on closeout for that important reason, even at $30 to $130 more (tac30/mtac). Looking it the Burris, it didn't look like an etched reticle; thanks again! I think I may have known but forgotten that at some point.

What all does the mtac have over the tac30 for the extra $100? Target knobs, better rheostat, anything else? I DO like the reticle setup of the Burris - a little busy but seems useful.

Also, I want to qualify what I said earlier about an OEG setup giving you "unlimited eye relief". Well, it doesn't truly give you unlimited, like a 1x ESD (dot sight) does, because you cannot get back say, 10 or 15" and expect to still see the illuminated center. So I kinda misspoke. But it DOES give you "more" eye relief. Say your scope has 4.0" of ER on 1.5 power or 1x (it's lowest setting) - you can probably back up a good 6" if you like and still see the whole large circle like in that Burris, and likely back up 7" or 8" and still see the center dots. So it gives you "plenty" or "more" eye relief, not unlimited, used as an OEG. Of course, as always, there is the relative imprecision of the OEG (floating zero and all that) - but by defintion, the C in CQB means that it's negligible/doesn't matter. And of course, it also does not give you parallax-free like a good 1x ESD, but then again, neither does having it on the lowest setting with the cover off.

But while I'm ranting and raving, I think the ultimate scope for many many rifles, including all-purpose/ 3-gun type rifles - pretty much all short and midrange rifles, is this S&B 1-8x24 or Premier 1.1-8x24. These are unbelievably good scopes. But, if you cannot spend $3,000 per scope, give or take, second best (budget-y choice), if you're willing to give up some of the more advanced features, like the parallax change and turret locking, etc., and if it's ever made, would be an as-of-now-nonexistent scope, but hopefully will be forthcoming -- Just take the Elite 6500 1.25-8x32 and give it illumination with a small center dot and a larger chevron or circle - or, just a larger chevron/circle with no center dot. AND, most importantly, keep it under $900. Then you could OEG it to have a 1x, and 1.25 to 8 zoom, and gives you 77.8% more light-gathering surface area than the Premier or S&B (32mm @ 804 sq mm is 77.8% more than a 24mm objective @ 452 sq mm). I think that up around 5-8 power, you'll also definitely appreciate the exit pupil size with 32 over a 24. AND, you could buy around 3 for every Premier or S&B. Waiting, waiting....Listening, Bushnell?

Something kinda like this already exists, in the form of the IOR/Valdada Tactical, 1.5-8x26, but it's a 5x erector (likely around 1.5-7.5 in reality), not a 6x erector like the Elite 6500 (could be wrong on that). And, it's sitting at over $1,300. Not terrible by any means for what you get, but a little up there. And, still the elite 6500 has 52% more surface area than even the IOR.

But, BUT... By george, what about this - I may have just stumbled onto the ultimate, and it's the IOR/Valdata sitting right there below the 1.5-8x26 at SWFA. It's a 2-12x36mm, illuminated, for $1,300 even. That's yet even 26% more surface area than the elite 6500 x32, and of course fantastic euro glass in the IORs. 2-12x36 - that IS a 6x erector, unless they're misrepresenting (could be). And of course, slap on a butler creek up front for a 1x CQB. So you can go in essence, clear from 1x to 12x (except for 1.1-1.9)! But it's 24 ounces and actually has a deal-breaking drawback - all it has is the center dot - no outer circle for CQB - rats! But man oh man, wonder how much adjustment range they were able to stuff into a 35mm body!?!

http://swfa.com/IOR-2-12x36-Spartan-Tactical-35mm-Rifle-Scope-P13106.aspx

OK, then...still waiting, waiting... Bushnell (or Nikon or someone), please make THIS scope (the 2-12x36 IR), with your 6500 rainguard glass, add a larger outer illuminated circle for CQB, and keep it down under $1,000 - boy, would we be cooking with butane! I can hope that Meopta is R&Ding something like this too. Waiting like this is certainly not a half-bad deal, as it will kill a couple birds with one stone...by the time what I want is out, I may actually have $$ to get it. Until then, the poor-man's proxy tac-scope, the Nikon Omega/Slugmaster/TurkeyPro 1.65-5x36mm shall continue to sit and serve well atop 5 or 6 different rifles and shotguns, and I may even get a couple more if Natchez throws some new or refurbs back down to that $135 range again! That is the ONLY scope I'll buy now until what I want is actually made, if ever - this ultimate scope I dream of for ARs and such. But this Nikon is the best scope value in the history of the universe, IMO, with the 3-9x40 omega a close second place.

Still, this 2-12x36 IOR is a VERY interesting scope for a number of rifles, even at that price. I slapped a Burris 2-12x50 "Six-X" (which in my understanding is a Black Diamond with the stormcoat coating) with a #4 reticle on my "long range hunting rifle" in .280 rem, and I really like this versatility.

I shall bow out, as I am getting off topic.

Back to 1-4x24s.....

P.S. Just spotted a thread that says someone saw an ad for 1-7 Sightron. Being a big fan of theirs, I'm heading over there.

Edited February 25, 2012 by UnlicensedDremel

[MarkCO]

The MTAC also has a power ring instead of the whole occular rotating like on the Tac30.

[JoWaCa]

Thumbless Monkey? check

Rifle? check

Ammo? check

Cleaning and maintenance equipment? check

Rifle case? check

Optics...? NO check

So here begins the chase...

I set out to find the right optics for me as a begining shooter and for entry level competition (tactical style, 3gun,etc). So I first learned the basics of the scope and how they work... sorta. But I'm still learning. So I began researching,reading, learning,deciding and undeciding, Thats the thing every time I find what "I think" will work for me I find something else i think will work better. Hence my saying chasing my tail.

I started off thinking the Nikon M223 1-4x20 was the one for me. Then I read up on the Burris Fullfield TAC30 1x4x24 Ballistic CQ 5.56 and decided that would better suit me. Now I found the Viper HS 1-4x24 TMCQ. Which now I think would be better choice then the Burris. I'm not sure what to choose now. I feel like they all would work to start but then I don't want to waste my money either. I know as time goes by I'll become a more experienced shooter and new stuff comes out i'll probably want to change or upgrade. Thats fine! I have a summer build in the works and any of these would work great or even better for it. So part of my thought was I would just swap over as I changed or upgraded.

So am I putting too much thought in this or have I just not reached that point where i can make a sound decision because I lack knowledge and experience with scopes period?

But I have to begin some where right?

The other thing is I'm trying to make this a good training tool as well.

Any thoughts on the above mentioned scopes, any other scopes or constructive suggestions on how to tackle this delima/situation?

Here are the links to each scope

Nikon M223 1-4x20 M-223 1-4x20 from Nikon

Burris Fullfield TAC30 1x4x24 Ballistic CQ 5.56 Burris Fullfield TAC30 Riflescopes

Viper HS 1-4x24 TMCQ Vortex Optics - Viper HS 1-4x24 TMCQ Illuminated Reticle

Thanks-Jason

I may be pissing gas on an open fire, but I certainly feel your pain. Trying to buy the best optic on recommendations is like marrying your girlfriend based on your family, or her family preference. It's a PITA unless you try living with it. In my very little experience I find it's best to start small and work up from there. Go iron sights or Dot/ Holo for your first sight to get a feel for your gun, then build up from there. My whole experience in shooting is with BB guns and 22's. I can shoot the ash off of a cigaret at 25 yards with a BB gun using iron sights. I used the same logic with 22's. Iron sights to get a feel for my rifle before I moved to optics. I like to feel how it shoots before I go for better stuff. You may learn that you don't need the high dollar program if you get good with the simple stuff first.

This also depends on what range you are shooting and target size. I've read about military guys learning to shoot irons out to 500m. The shots aren't always kill shots, but they certainly hit the mark. It depends on what kind of precision you are looking for and the level of experience you have. I went out shooting with my FIL last summer with my Glock. His buddies showed up with Rem 700's and high power scopes. They were in the ballpark of hitting a milk jug (within 5m radius) but I was almost as accurate with my glock shooting ( I was within a 10m radius, but nowhere close to home). We were on a large farm...My FIL was within the same radius on iron sights with his .22 rifle. How comfortable are you with your gun and what kind of distances are you looking to hit?

[jn_fsu]

Thanks for all the input everyone!

My strive for getting in competitive shooting last year stalled out... (more rifles, another car, etc...)

I caught a bad case of the BRD ( Black Rifle Disease) and began building another rifle while finishing up my first one. Which I did complete and started another build (300 Blackout) thats not done yet. I kept my second rifle pretty simple and I'm going to use it for my Iron shooting and hopefully some carbine/tactical classes. My original rifle build I added a Leupold Mark AR 3-9x40mm (mil-Dot)to work on some distance shooting and as a learning tool. I still intend to get a 1-4x (or variant)for competitive shooting down the road. The Burris MTac just keeps calling to me for some reason.

This years goal is get out and shoot more! Practice! Practice! Practice! Oh and do some learning in the process.

[UnlicensedDremel]

People do seem to be happy with the Burris Tacs... can anyone point me to a thread that shows the difference between .300 blackout and .300 RAR? I haven't been keeping up for a year or so...