Changing ammo during a match

[Pact-Man]

I was thinking about this the other day, imagining a revolver shooter but it could apply to anyone. Assume that a shooter has 2 types of handloads- one that will be used for paper, and just makes PF. The other type is heavy- used in a stage with steel. As long as both loads make PF, I don't think this is illegal, but is it OK? I tend to lean towards the gamer side of IDPA, so if I was SO'ing a shooter who did this, I wouldn't care, but I could see a person getting some flack at a big match over it, too. What do you think?

[tightloop]

Dude, that is why there is a power factor even in IDPA. 125 PF ammo will take down all the steel you have to shoot.

If you want to get tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail, let some of them Good Old Boys catch you using two different sets of ammo.

[MikeyG23]

As long as both loads make PF I don't think it would be an issue. Would you catch flack from some of the "tacticians" ? Probably but I've never noticed anyone paying attention to what I was loading my mags with. I don't know why you would want to do it though. If it were me I would be more worried about the difference in recoil, gun cycling, sight picture etc, between the 2 loads. I shoot a G34 in SSP and my pet load runs at about a 145 PF with less perceived recoil (subjective, I know) than WWB or Blazer. Not worth it in my opinion.

[JFD]

I think you'd be found out almost immediately just from the sound. I doubt if there would be a chrono at most local matches, which may keep you from getting the wonderful FTDR, but I'm sure they'd think of some way to screw you over.

I'm mainly a USPSA shooter and have never even heard of anyone with different loads for paper and steel. In USPSA it would be legal as long as both loads met minimum PF. Of coure legal doesn't mean smart.

[Pact-Man]

This line of thought is a result of our last match. There was a stage with 3 poppers in it, and one of them was obviously calibrated differently than the others. 9mm hits still took it down, but more than a couple of shooters had to hit them several times. I don't reload pistol, but I just wondered if a person might "load heavy" on a stage with steel to make sure it only took one shot to knock them down.

[DogmaDog]

All steel targets are supposed to be calibrated such that one center hit with a minimum PF round will knock them down.

I have seen one occasion in an IDPA match where it might have been advantageous to shoot a popper a 2nd time in order to knock it down faster, because it activated a target that popped out from behind a wall, and there was nothing else to shoot while waiting for the popper to fall.

Otherwise, you should try to shoot the steel first, and then engage other targets while the steel is falling. By the time you are done, whatever the steel activated will be available to shoot.

Also, your time ends with the last shot recorded by the timer, so it doesn't matter how slowly the steel falls if it doesn't activate anything.

So, no...there's no really good reason to have different loads for different targets.

DD

[Gun Geek]

I'm there with the Dog - there's no good reason to do this.

Actually, I think it might slow you down. To me shooting well (and fast) is about consistiency. Knowing that the sound and feel of the gun is going to change will probably take my concetration off of the front sight and trigger control - which means I'll slow down and miss.

I've always got a sound and feel monitor going in my head any way - listening for difference that indicate ammo malfunctions, gun malfunctions, etc. Ignoring this will take even more cycles.

If you think the poppers weren't calibrated right, I'd ask for a test.

Geek

[ErikW]

I used to do this when I was flirting with 9x19 Minor in USPSA Limited. What a big, fat loser that was!

Pick a load and shoot it.

[Flexmoney]

There is a local (non-IDPA, non-USPSA) match that has a variety of home-made steel targets. A handful of the shooters that ALWAYS finish at the top use different loads at that match.

I'm in the "pick one and practice" camp, but I can see that there could be times where different loads could be helpful.

So...Is it legal in IDPA, or not?

[Gun Geek]

OK, I'll bite, just for the sake of discussion.

I don't think ammo switching is specifically prohibited in the LGB.

However, you might be setting yourself up for a FTDR penalty:

Philosophy (from the LGB, Page 1)

Purpose:

Defensive Pistol shooting as a sport is quite simply the use of practical

equipment including full charge service ammunition to solve simulated "real

world" self-defense scenarios. Shooters competing in Defensive Pistol events

are required to use practical handguns and holsters that are truly suitable for

self-defense use. No "competition only" equipment is permitted in Defensive

Pistol matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of the

individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship.

Principles:

•To create a level playing field for all competitors to test the skill and ability of

the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship.

Page 30 - Definition of an FTDR

Competition Rules:

2. Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any

stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or

technique, will incur a twenty (20) second penalty (Vickers Count Stage)

or a two hundred (200) point penalty (PAR Time Stage); this is the

"FAILURE TO DO RIGHT RULE".

If switching ammo is specifically done for gaming reasons (which it would be in the above scenario) then it would seem to me to go against the purpose and principles of the sport, and therefore be a good candidate for an FTDR.

[Loves2Shoot]

Shouldn't you use 200 PF ammo in IDPA anyway

[BerettaRacer]

I'm a USPSA shooter, lately Production division, not IDPA, but I use 2 different loads most times. Wally World value pak 9mm makes about 128-130 PF thru my Beretta EII but doesn't take steel down very well. When it works out right I'll set up some heavier (more expensive) ammo for steel that makes about 138-139 PF.

If you believe that fantasy that steel, even if calibrated at 125, will fall with one minor load hit when you're blazing thru a stage, come on by I'll be glad to sell you a ski area in Florida.

[tightloop]

Racer,

that is why they have calibers large than 9mm, but everyone has to choose their own poison.

[OpnBlstr]

If you believe that fantasy that steel, even if calibrated at 125, will fall with one minor load hit when you're blazing thru a stage

Yep. Especially when it's gusting wind on match day and the steel is set so 165pf barely knocks it over and you have to pause, wait, get lined back up for a second shot, then it finally starts falling.

If it's not a windy day and the steel is set normally then a 9mm will have no problem taking it down swiftly. The problem I run into is it is very windy on a regular basis locally. I just shot a match where we had people ready to run downrange just before the start if a steel fell. We gave up on colding the range everytime someone had to run down and set a steel back up. We had one shooter on "standby" more than five times before they finally got a good start.

Improvise, adapt, overcome.

Check Websters: TACTIC - an expedient for achieving a goal. TACTICAL - characterized by adriotness, ingenuity, or skill.

An FTDR would punish the truly tactical.

[Gun Geek]

hmmmm,

I don't think IDPA was meant to be tactical. There's even the word "defensive" in the title. So an FTDR to punish the truly tactical would be ok with me.

What we tend to think of these days as tactical is people dressed in black busting through a room making an arrest, killing terrorists, etc. In that case, one certianly might choose ammo based on anticipated threat. We're not trying to model a tactical situation - we don't do much house clearing or arrests in IDPA. The idea is that you shoot what you would carry.

Allowing a shooter to choose gear (ammo, gun, holster, etc) based on gaining an advantage based on a stage is pure and simple gaming, which is IPSC/USPSA, and I love to shoot those rules as well. We don't allow people to load mags with a certian number of rounds so that they cleanly break between targets, or to do an emergency reload and avoid the much maligned RWR. That will surely get you an FTDR. It makes sense that you might choose a different ammo (and shoot it all day) if you know there is going to be steel in a match.

I'm with Tightloop here about the 9mm stuff. In a truly defensive situation there is a price to pay for the more rounds and lighter recoil of a 9mm - you typically have to shoot more to stop the bad guy - makes sense that you whould have to do the same in IDPA. [This is an old argument!]

Geek

[Mark Perez]

I was thinking about this the other day, imagining a revolver shooter but it could apply to anyone. Assume that a shooter has 2 types of handloads- one that will be used for paper, and just makes PF. The other type is heavy- used in a stage with steel. As long as both loads make PF, I don't think this is illegal, but is it OK? I tend to lean towards the gamer side of IDPA, so if I was SO'ing a shooter who did this, I wouldn't care, but I could see a person getting some flack at a big match over it, too. What do you think?

As long as both loads exceed the 125 pf - I don't have a problem with it.

Back when I carred a round gun , the last 2 of 6 were 357's (vs. 38+P) and the speedloaders held 357's too.

Figured the hearing would be gone by the 5th round anyway and if a reload was needed I wanted heavier stuff

[Larrys1911]

Back when I carred a round gun , the last 2 of 6 were 357's (vs. 38+P) and the speedloaders held 357's too.

Figured the hearing would be gone by the 5th round anyway and if a reload was needed I wanted heavier stuff

That is an interesting thought, I carry alternating rounds in my carry gun

and in my BUM (Back Up Mag, you perverts ) I have one with hollow points like in my gun and the other BUM is all hardball!

Cause they ALL FALL TO HARDBALL dontcha know!!!!

I dont think anyone would knotice and I wouldnt CARE as long as they both make PF whats the complaint gonna be? Well he saw that the steel we put out wasnt calibrated so he got heavier loads to knock them down!

Of course some people would probably do that too.

I really dont see the point though, if they are off that bad someone needs to set them right.

As an off note there is nothing in the rule book that I recall that talks about calibrating steel. I may be wrong because I am trying not to mess with the old rule book because I dont want to be confuzzed when the new one comes out

Larry P