must top off at start?

[ErikW]

In another thread smoney mentioned 11 rounds and topping off.

Is a shooter required to load a round in the chamber and start with a full (to division-mandated capacity) magazine?

I seem to remember doing this for my first few matches but not at the most recent match. We were just inserting, racking, and reholstering.

[jmc9x23]

Some matches require and some do not. IDPA requires it for all but COF that have a specific number of shots to get to a slide lock reload like in the Classifier.

[JZ]

Compitition Rule #14

Autoloaders MUST begin any Vickers count string of fire requiring a reload with the pistol loaded to maximum capacity or the maximum capacity allowed in that division. In the case of SSP division , this would be 11 rounds total.

You can start any Limited Vickers stages other than the classifier with your pistol down loaded say in SSP to 10 rounds so you can plan were your reload will be.

I can't find anywhere in the rules that say different.

[Mark Perez]

JZ - I can't find any where in the rules that allow down-loading . Vickers or limited vickers. Here is what I was able to find off the idpa site:

14. Pistols must start from mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design. In general, single-action autos will start cocked and locked (ESP & CDP), double-action autos (SSP) will start hammer-down and locked or unlocked. However, unusual designs may be started in other ways. Selective double-action autos may start cocked and locked or hammer down. Autoloaders MUST begin any Vickers Count string of fire requiring a re-load with the pistol loaded to maximum capacity or the maximum capacity allowed in that division. In the case of SSP division, this will be 11 rounds total.

We pretty much agree here.

CAN I SHOOT MORE SHOTS AT A TARGET THAN IS SPECIFIED IN THE COURSE DESCRIPTION? YES, as long as the course is specified as a “Vickers Count” stage,, your best hits of the specified number will be scored. On courses designated as “Limited Vickers Count”, you may only fire the specified number of shots. Any extra shots will incur a procedural penalty.

There is no mention of mag capacity - I am guessing the rule14 still applies here??

ON STAGES REQUIRING A TACTICAL OR SLIDE LOCK LOAD, CAN I DUMP ROUNDS DOWN RANGE SO I WILL BE ABLE TO RELOAD BY A FASTER METHOD/MORE CONVENIENT LOCATION? YES, however you will receive a “Failure to do right” penalty of 20 seconds for the stage for not negotiating the course in the spirit of the contest.

Wouldn't this apply to your last comment - "so you can plan where your reload will be" ?

From what I can determine - all stages should start with full capacity , unless a specific action is required in the course design , ,ie , slide lock reload at a specific point in the course.

Now , you CAN do the stage as you  like. If you vary from the requirements from the course design ,  as I have done in the pass - accept the procedurals and continue on with the rest of the match. The key to "doing idpa" is shooting exactly what the course scenario calls for. It doesn't have to make sense.

[JZ]

Competition rule #14 only Applys to Vickers Scored stages(which allow you to shoot as many rounds as you want) not Limited Vickers stages (Which specify the amount of rounds that you can shoot).

In Limited Vickers you can down load your pistol, say in SSP, To ten rounds or any even amount (There is no where in the rule book that says you can't do this!). So that you don't have to shot one round on a target, go to slide lock and then reengage that target with one round.

If I'm wrong please point out the rule that says a shooter can't do this.

Also if an SO trys to give you a procedural for downloading your pistol on a Limited Vickers stage ask him or her were in the rule book it says you can't do this.

I'll bet you they can't find it!

(Edited by JZ at 9:56 am on Mar. 20, 2002)

[Mark Perez]

Makes sense , so far . If a ltd.Vickers string calls for only 4 shots as an example , there is no competitive advantage to loading only 4 in the gun. The disadvantage I see to doing that is if one of those rounds turns out to be a dud ,then there is going to be some fancy corrective actions taking place

After reviewing the rule book last night - it is correct that "it doesn't say you can't" download  for a limited vickers string,how ever it doesn't say you can either .refer to r14.

If everyone were to load their pistols to the max capacity/division for all stages - and shoot it in the spirit in which idpa is supposed to be run , it will make it easier for the shooters and SO's over all.

(Edited by Mark Perez at 8:34 am on Mar. 21, 2002)

[TGO]

Not even trying to find a rule that allows or does not allow short loading of the gun, you need only consider why you would do this. Simple, to gain an advantage by allowing the gun to be loaded at a more desirable time or place. You obviously can not choose how many rounds you load in your gun as the rule states you will be fully loaded. If the course of fire requires short loading, it is because they want to test your abilty to load at a given time. Whether it is a limited shots stage or not is not the point. Go back to why you would do it. Remember, if you would not load down for a gunfight, the idea is you would not down load for the event. This is why CDP shooters are not allowed to jump back and forth between 7 and 8 rounders in a match. Pick the one you want and shoot the whole event with it. Of course if you are shooting a 5 or six round string and do not care to top off, I would doubt anyone would care, but technically if you ran into problems and needed more rounds, the fact that you were loaded short could be a problem. Again, you would not gain here, but sticklers for the rules are out there. If you always try to go with what is meant to keep the competition fair to all competitors, you will be better off. Justifying it by saying we all get to do it is a little weak.

Rob

[Steve Moneypenny]

TGO said it perfect.

now my question, 7 or 8 round mags in CDP, i have a  thought. i know that 7 round mags give you an even number which is a TINY advantage. but say you have a stages that require a certian number of rounds ( not to exceed 18 as per IDPA guide lines)  but if you have an 8 +7 in a spare mag that 15 rounds. but the other way you have 9+8 which is 17 rounds

now to the actual question, is it a wise move to use 7 round mags that way you reload on an even number, or are the extra rounds more of an advante, what does TGO use, and those of you with a lot of match experience, what are your thoughts/experience.

thanks

steve

[TGO]

I use 8 rounders most all the time. I figure I will need the round as often as the even round count. With the 9 or 10 round question for esp, that extra couple rounds over the .45 does make a difference in how you attack a given course of fire. However I usually shoot 9 rounders for the sake of reliability in the 9x19. 1 round CAN be a lot, but ten total is a pretty good compromise.

Rob

[idpassr]

---

now to the actual question, is it a wise move to use 7 round mags that way you reload on an even number, or are the extra rounds more of an advante, what does TGO use, and those of you with a lot of match experience, what are your thoughts/experience.

---

If you want to use 7 round mags, that's all you are allowed to use.  That very thing jumped up and bit a shooter at the AZ Champs this past weekend.  He shot the first stage with and declared he was using 8 round mags.  It was better for him since it required 9 rounds.  2 stages later, in the same bay with the same SO's, he loaded with a 7 round mag(for a total of 8) for a series of 4 targets(2 rounds each for a slide lock reload).  He got called on it and was given a 3 second PE.  It took a while for it to sink in to that shooter that the advantage he got for the slide lock reload was one sight picture on the last target instead of 2(since the minimum number of rounds was 10).

That's why I like shooting my roundgun, there's no way you can download or change capacity on an IDPA legal wheelgun!

GB

[Steve Moneypenny]

i understand, the fact that i am pretty good on a local level and some people just can't stand to be beat makes me play as fair or fairer, if thats possible than most shooters, like all ammo MUST mak epower factor for me to shoot it in a match. and i ONLY have one type of mag with me that i use. i have 1 7 round mag that i only load 2 or 3 rounds in and keep in my front right pocket ( can't use it for anything but top off since it is has no base pad)

TGO thanks for the input, i was thinking at that low of a capacity the single round would make a bigger difference. now i know what to buy when i get my wilson mags in the future.

yeah, SSR is a fun fun event BUT its not where the competition is. i mean same few people every match, here we are lucky if 5 or 6 out of 80 people shoot a wheel gun and they are mostly ( with the exception of 1 master, SS, MM or below)

[Duane Thomas]

True, you don't have to top off in a Limited Vickers Count stage. But that really doesn't signify in the topic under discussion. Limited Vickers is used only in standards exercises, and in those you can't fire more or less than the exact number of rounds called for in the course description. Scenarios - what we're talking about here - are all done Vickers Count, and there you can't download.

[Bill]

"yeah, SSR is a fun event BUT its not where the competition is"

The competition is to beat all the flatgunners with a round gun.

Bill Nesbitt

[Duane Thomas]

A worthy goal, by God!

[Bill]

It's only happened once so far, but the flatgunners fear me.

Bill Nesbitt

[Steve Moneypenny]

yup, bill beat me with a wheel gun, but it was a bad day for me...... ( a bad day because i got beat by a wheel gunner)

i must say it is a good feeling to shoot a wheel gun faster than the guys with the auto's it is very intimidating to those who don't shoot well.

[Flexmoney]

See it here:

http://www.ovis.net/~jfulks/1-02.htm