double tap times

[Sbar700]

What is the average time on double taps? How fast should one expect to get? with a stock Glock 35?

thanks S.Barrier

[eric nielsen]

There is no doubletap.

If you're new to the sport, practicing 2 shots per target will be counter-productive, unless you're lucky enough to set up your own ipsc courses on an outdoor range.

Practice shooting 4 (timed) shots into the Azone of a target. For every different distance - 3yds, 7yds, 10yds, 15yds, 25yds - find out for yourself what is the fastest pace that you can shoot 4 A's.

Then shoot 2 shots, at the pace you can control 4, at each target in a match.

PS - Chris Tilley was 2nd overall at the 2004 Florida Open, while shooting split times noticeably longer than most everyone else in the super-squad.

[Flexmoney]

Double tap???

Why would you want to shoot a miss and know how fast?

(I know...we are giving you a hard time. That phrase is practically outlawed here though.)

Double tap = One sight picture and two trigger pulls = often(very) means a miss on the second shot.

[Loves2Shoot]

Double tap???

Why would you want to shoot a miss and know how fast?

(I know...we are giving you a hard time. That phrase is practically outlawed here though.)

Double tap = One sight picture and two trigger pulls = often(very) means a miss on the second shot.

What Flex said.

That being said .2 is plenty fast and when you get there, you will know what fast is for you, and that is all that really matters. Don't listen to these guys that brag about .1 -.11 splits, yea I've done them to on a freak occasion, but they are about as important as spinning a basketball on your finger is to playing a game of basketball.

Learning to call your shots is the most important thing.

[EricW]

What everybody said.

This is one that people get backwards. Split time reduction is a reflection upon your improving talents. It's not the goal. I shoot .12's and .13's regularly during Bill Drills, but that has about as much to do with the price of bananas as how well I shoot a match.

[Steve Moneypenny]

if you want times, do a search, maybe look at some of the other forum sections for good threads

[Trey]

Sbar,

Welcome to BE! If you haven't read our hosts' book, you would be well served by doing so. It will really help you. It did me.

You can only shoot as fast as you can see. Faster shooting doesn't produce better vision/sight. BUT seeing more will help to decrease your times in some areas of shooting.

BTW, I also had "double taps" in my vocabulary. After I reading BE's book, I had to lobotimize alot of shooting terms and philosophy from my brain. As I increase my awareness, I improved. It helped immensely!

[Flexmoney]

Sbar700,

LOL...sounds like we gave it to you with both barrels.

Sorry about that. Welcome aboard. You are in the right place if you are looking to improve your shooting!!

[Sbar700]

Thanks and you all weren't too bad to me Just to the point

[Matthew_Mink]

Now that you know not to double tap , a .20 is pretty good for a stock G35 at targets up to 10 yards or so and keeping them in the A-zone, or -0 zone. That is doable with practice and visual focus.

[pwalker]

S.Barrier

I shoot a Glock 17 in IPSC Production division. This means a 5lb trigger pull. With such a heavy trigger, the faster one pulls the trigger, the more likely one is to move the point-of-impact to the left and down from the point-of-aim during the trigger pull. This is a major factor in the reduction of split times.

This is not the same as a flinch. This is caused by a very slight point-of-impact movement due to the finger not pulling the trigger exactly in a two-dimension, zero-degree plane in relationship to the barrel. Of course, the ultimate goal is to train oneself to always pull the trigger along this zero degree plane at all speeds. But I am not there yet. Give me plenty of time and I can give you a 9 or 10 point hit on a bullseye target at 25 meters, 49 times out of 50 - every trigger pull along the zero degree plane. But, after two years of IPSC practice, I found that, as I shoot faster, there is still some slight off-angle movement in the trigger. Enough to put the point-of-impact into the lower-left D section of the target, or, at faster trigger speeds and greater distances, off the target altogether.

This is a very common phenomenon. Yesterday at a match I watched a group of brand-new production shooters. In most cases, their misses were their second shot and in most cases, it was to the left and down. Even when they achieved two hits, the second was usually in the lower-left of the target.

This point-of-impact problem affects the minimal time for each shot (both the first and second shot), based on one's trigger pull skills. Of course, the impact of the point-of-impact movement is greater at longer distances due to simple geometry. The point-of-aim / point-of-impact variation seems to be greater for the second shot. I am not sure why but I suspect that it is something to do with muscle dynamics in the hand.

The SOLUTION to the problem is to practice, practice and practice, both dry and live, to get the trigger pull faster and faster but always remain on the zero-degree plane.

However, this may take many years. In the meantime, how to improve one's results in a match?

I did some sessions with a shot-timer and targets set at 5 meters, 10, meters, 15 meters, 20 meters and 30 meters.

I found that, if I aim both shots at the top-right corner of the A zone, I can hit the target twice in the A zone, the first in the top-right corner of the A zone and the second in the lower-left corner of the A zone on most shots if I shoot at a certain speed for each distance. (NB.: this is not a double-tap. I am seeing a sight picture for both the first and second shot.)

With lots of practice, the "feeling" for those trigger speed / target distance relationships becomes a cadence that I can automatically reproduce most of the time in matches.

With more practice, I have found that I can reduce those trigger speed times, establishing a new cadence pattern for each group of target distances.

My split time for the second shot (the first shot has more variability due to the transition from the previous target) at the moment to reliably get two As with a 5lb Glock trigger are:

5M ~0.3

10M ~0.6

15M ~0.75

20M ~0.85

30M ~1.0

But these numbers are irrelevant to you (and me). With a lighter trigger, I can significantly reduce these times so your Glock 35 with its 3.5 lb trigger should be faster. Your shooting skills and trigger control will be different from mine (probably better, right?).

And, during a match, those numbers are irrelevant. It is the cadence that I have playing in my head for the approximate target distance that controls the trigger-pull speed, not some number. I think that I have 3 candences: one for close targets, one for medium targets and one for far targets.

If you follow this cadence approach, you need to work out your own cadence for the various distances and practice to (a) be able to reproduce them during a match and ( continuously work at shortening them while still remaining in the A zone with most shots.

The benefit to me of the cadence approach is because it allows me to focus more of my (limited) brain power on "getting through the stage" with the sight-picture controlling the start of the trigger pull and the cadence dictating the trigger-pull speed.

Now, I am sure that the experts on this forum will tell you that all I have written above is BS.

But, this is what is working for me now so I thought that I would share it with you.

Regards

Peter

[Loves2Shoot]

PWalker,

It may be working for you now, but your aproach will serverly handicap you later as you improve.

Let your front sight and your target determine your cadence. Using a predetermine "cadenece" will keep you from shooting to your abilities. Trust your eyes, they are the fastest thing you have.

"Let your front sight be your speedometer." Saul Kirsch.

DVC

[Flexmoney]

Yeah...I hate "cadence" just about as much as I hate "double tap". (Not quite though, candence can be a decent learning tool to have in your toolbox...just leave it in the toolbox come match time.)

Vision should control the shooting. (as L2S said)