270 vs 308 vs ?

[Erik S.]

I can see how the greatest entropy is before the bullet leaves the barrel, but I don't see how it decreases with the exterior distance the bullet travels. There are 2 systems...one while the bullet is in the gun, and the second as soon as it leaves the barrel. It seems that entropy would increase along the flight path.

Also, I think there is some confusion that bullet weight makes bullets stable. There is a correlation between velocity, barrel twist, and bullet mass that creates stability, not SOLEY the weight. I believe there are inherently stable cartridges and those tend to be the popular ones like .308, .30-06, 7mm mag, etc. The hybrids (some now quite popular) such as .260 Rem and 7mm-08 are a result of research and improvements on the aforementioned.

You are correct on both counts.

On Entropy, there is no known physical system with zero Entropy. The way to look at it is the "rate of change" which can be a positive or a negative. No matter where you draw your boundaries on a moving projectile, S will be positive.

Wap and I both were looking at the rate of change, not absolute. Probably our bad, it can be a mind bending concept.

That it can!

[Modoc]

You are correct on both counts.

On Entropy, there is no known physical system with zero Entropy. The way to look at it is the "rate of change" which can be a positive or a negative. No matter where you draw your boundaries on a moving projectile, S will be positive.

Wap and I both were looking at the rate of change, not absolute. Probably our bad, it can be a mind bending concept.

Mark, so as a Layman (even though I am a Civil E) I am looking for a combination that gives the smallest and MOST REPEATABLE rate of change.

Good food for thought.

[AlamoShooter]

your all Bad Bad Men, Now I want a 260 Bolt gun ,and I will have to figure what to trade off to get one.

From what I have crammed in the past three nights is that any thing less than a Rem 700 will disappoint me

Edited March 12, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[Wap wap]

alamoshooter, the remington was a suggestion given the constraints of the original poster. With your 5000 posts it seems that your post is more tongue in cheek. Remington, certainly could work buts it certainly not in the "good" stuff.

[AlamoShooter]

alamoshooter, the Remington was a suggestion given the constraints of the original poster. With your 5000 posts it seems that your post is more tongue in cheek. Remington, certainly could work buts it certainly not in the "good" stuff.

Now "Thats" funny ...you just tied a post count to indicate some level of knowledge or intelligence.

The only difference in me and the original poster is that I look forward to targets over 500 yards with my AR , the only bolt gun I have is a Howa 1500 in 22-250 that is limited to under 400 by the barrel twist

I will have to take a measured start in any Bolt gun work-ups

probably look for something used that is ready to re-barrel

Edited March 12, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[MarkCO]

Mark, so as a Layman (even though I am a Civil E) I am looking for a combination that gives the smallest and MOST REPEATABLE rate of change.

Good food for thought.

I think you got it.

[Graham Smith]

There are good chances that some matches I may shoot in could have 600 and up yard shots.

I shot my AR with an inexpensive scope in a sniper course out to 600yds using 69gr bullets. It wasn't great but I could keep them in "reasonable" groups on a standard IPSC target. But I was really pressing my luck because even a small amount of wind could have screwed me.

Afterwards, I went on a long search of alternatives, including different uppers for my AR. In the end, I went with a bolt action .308. FWIW, here's my advice: If you want to keep it simple, get a Remington 700P or 770P LTR in .308. It's a well built rifle with a good trigger and stock and an almost endless supply of aftermarket parts.

There's a ton of good match quality .308 ammo being made and more reloading choices than almost anything else out there. There are some really high BC 155gr bullets to play with and Hornady has a new high BC 178gr.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Graham Smith

[Wap wap]

I try to make mine as ergodic as possible.

Alamo-- not making any assumptions about your shooting, but from my own internet forum experience, high posts counts usually indicate a high level of interest. If youre in the build department, start with the stock and purpose, select the best bullet then build the action and barrel around it.

I use the 155 amax in a trg 300 mag out to 1200 yds, and at 3300 fps it kicks my 6.5x284 Cooper phoenix butt.

The 178 amax is outstanding and costs 4-5 bucks less than the sierras, I use a bunch in an

ar10T because the drop figures correlate well with 6x24 diavari z1000 reticle used with it.

[Erik S.]

A consistent muzzle velocity (say, standard deviation of 5 or less) will give you the most consistent rate of change. If you start the "second system" (ie. when the bullet leaves the muzzle) the same each time, your results will be more predictable. If you do that with a .308 or a 260, your results will be very similar. Brass prep and attention to detail while reloading is the biggest key there.

If post count equals the kind of gun you should get, I'd look at GA Precision. But then I don't really buy into the post count thing. (see thread on what the dots under your avatar mean )

[Wap wap]

entropy is degree of unpredictably in the random variable associated with stochastic processes, if you keep if specific to thermodynamics, then discussions like the above result. A study methodology would include it as a subcategory.

post counts can mean anything the reader wants them to,anything from high posters have no jobs to a high degree of activity in that area -- a conjecture statistic at best but none the less, in this case the reply indicated somewhat where the posters comments on Remington was coming from. In your example it would mean that the better the equipment the more proficient the shooter. Maybe, maybe not. Bigger and better banana contests can be informational if they contain the whys.

Which leads to the next question, why isn't starting with a Remington/Savge, or used remington the better/good/best/cheapest/more efficient way to go?

[Erik S.]

*snip*

Which leads to the next question, why isn't starting with a Remington/Savge, or used remington the better/good/best/cheapest/more efficient way to go?

It is!! See my previous recommendation. Plenty of good starter rifles out of the box that you just may find out shoot as good as the big dogs, especially with quality reloads! I know I did....

[Wap wap]

it really isn't. by the time you have it trued up etc. your into almost as a stiller or something, and you will still have stock problems. Your answer is the "Well look what Ford did without a college ed." with the obvious answer of "Look what he could have done if he had have gone". There isn't any starter rifles that will shoot with the big dogs if your looking at the complete picture-- shooting groups maybe, but not in the total aspect.

I was looking at a grander scale. Most of the posters here can tell you down to what wt. of springs they use in their handguns, but yet they aspire to mediocrity in a precision/tactical rifle. Because a manufacturer attaches an X or SP to one of their standard hunting bolt rifles it must fit the needs. Why they don't approach a maker as a group, as this forum could, and offer suggestions that would meet 90% of the real needs is beyond me. Mossberg would probably go straight to the problem or may T/C. Ruger almost did it in their scout rifle but decided to go with the name affiliation of scout for sales reasons. If they would have put a med varmint barrel, a tactical bolt handle a reasonable good brake (maybe as an option) and not the least, a better cartridge say a 260 for example, at the price they are selling the scouts they would have wiped up.

Could of, would of, should of.

The only thing I'm reading is the suggestion of a basic hunting rifle with a different name on it, because somebody wants to think its different than any other hunting rifle.

Reloading and shooting is a series of probability distributions taken through time (Poisson distributions) ,each one characteristic of an event space in time relying on several random variables not controllable (weather) by the shooter and usually play more of a role than ES. The totals of which even out to a probability mass function. So whats your batting average?

[MarkCO]

... If they would have put a med varmint barrel, a tactical bolt handle a reasonable good brake (maybe as an option) and not the least, a better cartridge say a 260 for example, at the price they are selling the scouts they would have wiped up.

Could of, would of, should of.

Don't think I agree with you on this one. The market is "Tacticool" based, not competitive shooter based. WE are a small niche, and sometimes what we buy has mass market appeal, but usually not. A "scout" or "police" or "sniper" designation is surely worth large sums of cash as it appeals to the general casual shooter. But to actually put the good parts in, and lower their overall profit margin, does not make business sense for the big gun companies. Not good or bad, just is. And if that package did not have a "good enough" barrel, we would all trash it and the sales then would plummet.

[Erik S.]

I would certainly agree with the overall statement that most rifles with an "ES" after the model etc are hunting rifles in black synthetic stocks, HOWEVER, that is not true across the board. Look at the FN SPR for example, that is a very nice rifle and one could consider it "stock". The Savage 10FCP has a McMillan or HS Precision stock option. The stock and bedding configuration are important components in ANY precision rifle. Yes a trued action and match grade barrel play a big role, but there are some "stock" rifles that are actually quite nice. I think that was what we were trying to point the original poster to and help him rule out the "hunting rifles in synthetic stocks". I suppose the STI Trubor is just a stock pistol, too....can't get anything good straight from the factory, right?

I'm speaking from EXPERIENCE when it comes to the Savage. Not to use the cyber universe as a citation to my knowledge about guns....too many do that and it doesn't mean much, but I have been a member of Sniper's Hide since 2004 and have learned an immense amount of information there. True, not all of it from experience, but I have heard alot of recommendations of the Savage's and FN's from people who know their stuff about LR shooting and currently own one of said Savages and have concrete results that it's a sub .5MOA rifle. Maybe I got lucky with one that just went together perfectly at the factory, but nonetheless am speaking from experience when it comes to the accuracy of both the FN SPR and the Savage 10FP-LE2B (now the 10FCP). To label all factory pistols or rifles that they cannot compete (to a high degree) with custom guns is unfair. Alot of it comes down to the shooter. I don't know many people (inlcuding me) who can outshoot a quality made gun with quality ammo taylored for that gun.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Erik S.

[Wap wap]

Its a lot more competitive based than you think, most the majors have people reading the forums like this and change or build new product, look how many scope changes have been made in the last 5 yrs, geared to this area. wouldn't have to change that many parts, most quality guns will outshoot the shooter (Erik you made the sentence a double negative, so I can't tell which side of the fence you're on). The ruger already has the DBM, some other factory changes wouldn't take that much. Hard for me to believe that folks wouldn't cough up a couple of hundred more anyway for the real deal.

Didn't say stock guns couldn't shoot, just lower end hunting rifles not being qualifed as a precsion/tactical rifle. Savage accue stock proves my point that a rifle could be factory altered for a lower cost than next layer up modifications. Not saying that a savage or stock R5 can't shoot .5 moa, what I am saying is that .5 moa don't mean squat. No way can you come on the 2nd,3rd,4th,7th shot fast enough to make it the real deal. I have several "stock" rifles that will shoot with the best customs, but there expense puts them away from the point of this post, which include trg 308 and 300mag ,kimber308, FN spr 7wsm A5, AI, and a DTA. And this doesn't include the stock Alpine (just including because of its stock nature). Stock barrels will never be good enough for a certain group of people anyway, and in the case of my FN it was rebarreled to 7wsm from barrel wear, which is also another major consideration in a precision (how long will the basic chassis go?)

[Erik S.]

Sorry....fixed post with double negative. To be clear, I'm of the belief that one CAN get a very good "stock" rifle. For what they are designed for, tactical competitions, .5 MOA is good enough. If we're talking benchrest, I can't say much since I'm not knowledgable in that world. I would guess you'd have to go with something a little more custom and shooting 6mm BR.

[Robert King]

Since I was the original poster asking the questions, I will chime in. I went with the Savage since it was the cheapest way to get into the game and still leave me enough to get decent glass. One thing I am 100% certain of, is that I will not be better than the gun for a long time, if ever. So, spending more on a gun would simply be a waste of money for the foreseable future. With the setup I bought, I will be as competitive as my skills allow. A $4,000 custom GAP would not get me from last place to next to last.

[Wap wap]

reason .5 moa doesn't matter, what groups you shoot from a bench just tell you the scope is sighted in, few can shoot .5 moa standing from a barricade, and few can shoot .5 from prone with a sporting stock and manipulating a stock bolt in the time constraints -- just isn't there. Not saying you should go out and get a 10k alpine. Using a standard hunter set, will never let you know possibilities that extend past that, let alone trying to master them. What makes the 1911 a great handgun, the fact that its a 1911, or the beaver-tail?

[Graham Smith]

Since I was the original poster asking the questions, I will chime in. I went with the Savage since it was the cheapest way to get into the game and still leave me enough to get decent glass. One thing I am 100% certain of, is that I will not be better than the gun for a long time, if ever. So, spending more on a gun would simply be a waste of money for the foreseable future. With the setup I bought, I will be as competitive as my skills allow. A $4,000 custom GAP would not get me from last place to next to last.

Very sound reasoning. What caliber did you get?

Just one bit of caution about the trigger on the Savage. If you have the AccuTrigger (which you do on a Savage 10), you must be careful to keep your finger flat and pull it straight back or it can fail to fire. It's a safety feature of the trigger and is also intended to enforce a good grip and good trigger control. But I watched someone struggle with this in a sniper course when he was having to shoot from odd angles where he could not get a perfect grip. He'd pull the trigger and it would go click but nothing would happen, so he'd have to reset the trigger and try again.